Trauma-Informed Parenting with Dr. Jen Serico
What is trauma? How do I know if my child is traumatized by the pandemic? In this first part of a two-part series on trauma-informed parenting, Dr. Amanda Zelechoski sits down with Dr. Jen Serico to discuss the concept of trauma, what it looks like when a child is traumatized versus stressed, and when your child might need additional support.
Highlights from the conversation include:
How do you define trauma?
What are the fight, flight, freeze responses?
How does fight, flight, freeze look different in children versus adults?
Is the pandemic a trauma?
What is the “continuum of stress?”
Taking care of our own mental health with all the other demands of parenting is hard. When and how do we care for our mental health?
What are some ways parents can support their children through difficult times?
Learn more about trauma-informed parenting and other topics mentioned in this episode:
Kennedy Krieger Institute - Center for Child and Family Traumatic Stress
The Importance of Play for Kids During COVID-19 by Amanda Zelechoski (Zulily)
Do You Suffer From 'Revenge Bedtime Procrastination'? Here's How To Tell. by Stephanie Barnes (HuffPost)
Self-Care for Parents – A Complete COVID 19 Parenting Guide by Dr. Lindsay Malloy (Zulily)
Bite-Sized Excerpts from this Episode:
What is trauma?
How do I know if my child is traumatized by the pandemic?
Creating Consistency for a Child Experiencing Stress
How can I protect my child from experiencing trauma?
How can I support my child after a potentially traumatic experience?
Meet Our Guest Expert
Jennifer M. Serico, Ph.D.
Jennifer M. Serico, Ph.D., is a clinical psychologist specializing in child and adolescent trauma. Dr. Serico conducts independent research and provides evidence-based treatment, trauma-informed evaluations, and supervision at the Center for Child and Family Traumatic Stress at Kennedy Krieger Institute. Her research interests include evaluating the effectiveness of evidence-based practices in community settings to reduce trauma symptoms and identifying and addressing mediating factors such as chronic stress and parent mental health.
Full Audio Transcript
[THEME MUSIC UNDER INTRO]
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Can you say... “This is Dr. Amanda Zelechoski.”
Child 1: Why do we have to?
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Just try it!
Child 1: I can't.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Deep breath.
Child 2: [Laughter] This is Dr. Amanda Zelechoski.
Child 3: [Yelling] Lindsay Malloy! Ah!
Dr. Lindsay Malloy: Wait, say Doctor Lindsay Malloy.
Child 3: [Yelling] Dr. Lindsay Malloy!
Dr. Lindsay Malloy: [Laughing] No, come back!
Child 4: This is Dr. Lindsay Malloy.
Child 2: Welcome to the [unintelligible] Parenting Podcast (laugher).
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: [Laughter].
Dr. Lindsay Malloy: One more time.
Child 4: And then after that can I have a candy?
Dr. Lindsay Malloy: [Laughing] No.
Child 4: Please, Mommy!
Dr. Lindsay Malloy: Okay, ready?
Child 4: The Pandemic Parenting Podcast!
Dr. Lindsay Malloy: Excellent!
[MUSIC INTERLUDE]
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Welcome to the Pandemic Parenting podcast. I'm Dr. Amanda Zelechoski, one of the co-founders of Pandemic Parenting. As psychologists, scholars, and moms, my colleague, Dr. Lindsay Malloy, and I share science-based research to help all who care for kids navigate this challenging time together. This episode is the first in a two-part series on trauma-informed parenting. I had the pleasure of speaking with Dr. Jennifer Serico about the concept of trauma, what it looks like when a child is traumatized and how that's different from general stress, and when your child might need additional support. It was really great to get her perspective as an expert in the field of child trauma. I especially appreciated her reminders to us to focus on consistency as best we can in our homes and on taking care of ourselves, recognizing the impact of our children, stress on our own stress, and vice versa. I also encourage you to check out Part 2 of this series when we hear from Dr. Julian Ford on the topic of trauma as well. He shares the ABC's of being a reassuring parent and speaks specifically to the challenges parents who are medical professionals and other essential workers face during the pandemic. So make sure to check that out as well. Let's get into it.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Alright, so I am here with Dr. Jennifer Serico who is a long-time dear friend of mine and now esteemed colleague. We know each other from Graduate School many years ago. We won't say how many years ago. So I'm wondering if you can –yeah, too many exactly– if you can tell us a little bit about, you know, sort of your role now, a little bit about your professional background and how you became interested in trauma.
Dr. Jen Serico: Sure, I'd be happy to. So I actually became interested in trauma – I'll start there because that dates back to the work that we did together. When I was in Graduate School, I did a lot of work with kids, justice involved youth, and so in that work what I saw over and over was how many kids had been exposed to trauma or experienced significant traumatic events and had never received treatment and that had significantly impacted the course of their development and in large part contributed to them ending up in the justice system. And so, you know, being able to kind of think about how can I intervene sooner was really where things went from doing that work for me. And so, from there, I sought out opportunities so that I could do more work in early intervention and really do – specifically trauma – work with kids. And so now I am at the Center for Child and Family Traumatic Stress at the Kennedy Krieger Institute in Baltimore, MD, and I do a number of different things there.
One of the things that I am really passionate about that I do there is that I provide training in parent-child interaction therapy and so that's a treatment model that helps parents change how they interact with kids and has been shown to actually be pretty effective in helping reduce maltreatment. So that's something that you know is a great way to provide some early intervention and to help kind of change the course for some families where there is a chance that those kids could have potentially experienced trauma. Or for kids who have experienced trauma to be able to change those relationships and get that sense of safety and support that they need so that they can move forward and not have the traumatic events in their life throw them off course in that way that I was talking about earlier.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah, so you're, you're right in the throngs of it working with these families as they move through some of these really difficult experiences. I love that you mentioned parent-child interaction therapy or PCIT. I think I also agree that that's an incredible model and actually, in one of the blogs we wrote for our partnership with Zulily a few months ago, we wrote about the importance of play during the pandemic. And so that was some of the pointers we were trying to give was how the PCIT model in particular talks about child-directed play. So yeah, there are a lot of great tips and resources there. So, you've been doing this work for a while. What has the last year been like? How has it looked different, you know, working with these families and kids?
Dr. Jen Serico: Well, I mean obviously we're working through Telehealth or having all of my therapy sessions through Zoom, so there are certainly challenges that come with that. And of course, you also have all of the stressors that families have experienced, so the families who come in to see us are typically families that have been self-referred and that are specifically seeking treatment to address traumatic events that they've experienced. And so these are families where there's already been some sort of traumatic event in the child's life. And then we're now working with them in this time where they're these significant stressors going on. You know, the pandemic has been stressful for families in so many different ways; not having access to education, you know, parents having to stay at home, parents who have to go to work despite the fears and the stress related to being in a pandemic and then beyond that, you have like the anti-racism uprisings that are driven by racial trauma and police brutality. And then even more recently, you know, you have all of the issues related to the political landscape and the events that surrounded that. So when you take all of these stressors together, it has had a significant impact on families and has really led to some more open discussions, I think, with lots of the families that we see about the impact of racial trauma, or about you know, talking about politics, political issues, or you know what families got from school that maybe we didn't realize before, kids weren't going to school, right? So there are all of these different stressors that have significantly impacted family systems that were already pretty overwhelmed.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah, so it's almost– it's just made it such a part of the conversation, maybe because of what's happening in our social and political context that may not have been so much at the forefront before, or probably was always there, but just not discussed or thought about, you know, as an issue to bring up in therapy? That's really just–
Dr. Jen Serico: Yeah, I think we have always tried, or at least personally, that's always been something that's important to me to make sure that I'm asking questions related to race and related to racial trauma. And I think that there are definitely like– there has been much more of this awareness, sort of across providers in kind of doing that work and making sure that as these events are happening that there is a safe space in therapy to be able to talk about the impact of these events and that if that's not happening early on in treatment, then that safe space isn't necessarily going to be there.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah, alright, so we've both been using this word trauma a lot, so I want to just back up for a second and, you know, ask you, how do you sort of define it? Or you know, what is trauma? People we– we use that term, we throw it around all the time now, I'm so traumatized by this or that. Now, but when I think when you and I are talking about it, we mean it in a pretty different context. And so I wondered if you could just talk a little bit about, you know what your understanding is of trauma?
Dr. Jen Serico: Yeah, absolutely, and it's interesting 'cause I was thinking about that specifically. The way that we kind of throw that term around. But when we define trauma and certainly for like clinical purposes, we're really thinking about an actual or perceived threat. And a threat of danger. That threat of danger can be with a child, when we're thinking about child trauma, it can be something that's a threat of danger to them or to somebody that they care about. And what happens with trauma is that it overwhelms a person’s usual ability to cope, right? So you have this threat of danger, and then you know, often you'll hear people talk about that sort of fight, flight or freeze mode that happens. That coping ability is overwhelmed, and then from there, everyday functioning ends up being impacted when we think about the real impact of trauma that it can have in a clinical sense.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: OK, so fight, flight, freeze. Let’s talk about that. What does that look like in the kids and families that you see?
Dr. Jen Serico: Sure. So when we have that like overwhelmed system, right? Our system kind of goes into a mode and that mode can be one of three different things, so you might fight – that might be your tendency if there's a scary situation, you perceive danger, you're going to try and fight back. For other people, there might be a scary situation, and their tendency is to freeze up. For other people, it might be to get out of that situation as fast as possible, and for different people, different types of those dangers are going to cause different reactions. And that's sort of that idea that, like our system or usual coping ability, is kind of overwhelmed, and so we go into one of these sort of immediate response styles that you know doesn't always allow us to cope in the ways that we would want.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: So if you think about a lot of the parent and child dynamics that you see, and I don't mean to put you on the spot, but I'm just thinking examples could be really helpful for parents. And so what does maybe a fight or a flight or a freeze example look like for a parent? And how might that actually look different in a child? Like what does a child fight look like potentially versus the parents fight response? And so maybe just some examples there would be helpful.
Dr. Jen Serico: Yeah. So I think like– when I think about– I'm just trying to think of some parents– and I think– like so when I think about a kid being triggered and when I say triggered, I mean they've had something that reminds them of a traumatic event, right? And that can be anything. And they might not even be able to name that trigger, but something triggers them and then that might be caused for them to actually physically fight, whether they're fighting their parent or their sibling or another kid in school, you know that they're actually getting into that kind of physical altercation. And that can be an example of that fight where you look at it, and it seems like what is up with this kid's behavior when really this kid's been traumatized, and they're having a traumatic response to that. For parents, I think you can sometimes see parents who have experienced trauma or whose child has experienced trauma, and they might be reacting in the same way. They might also be becoming physically aggressive, or they may be fighting in lots of different ways. So you know, we certainly see parents kind of going into that fight mode by engaging in a lot of yelling at other people, maybe not even with the kid or, you know, being traumatized and you know, potentially having that shut down response. And I think a lot of times with parents, especially parents who have experienced multiple traumatic events and then have their kids experience trauma as well, when they've worked really hard to try and create safety and create different experiences for their children, they can't always protect them from trauma. We can't predict traumatic events that are going to happen, and so I think there's often that tendency to become more numb or to freeze up in some of those situations. That then a child who's experienced trauma is kind of feeling like my parent doesn't even care, like they don't even notice that I'm having this response. Yeah, and so you see these sort of patterns of interaction, but develop that you know a parent cares deeply and wants to do so much to help their child and, again, their coping ability is overwhelmed by the trauma that they've experienced.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah, those are great examples. Thank you. Uhm, is the pandemic a trauma? Let's talk about what's been happening in the last year. Is that traumatic for us? What do you think about that?
Dr. Jen Serico: Well, I think that's a hard question, and I think that really, when I think about the definition of trauma as I use it clinically, I would say that you know, in some ways, there have been these perceived dangers where a child might really feel like I'm going to get sick, I'm going to die, the people I care about they're going to get sick and die. And I think that that's really dependent on what their exposure has been, right? So I think typically when you think about a pandemic, you would define it more as stress, right? Stress is the kind of change where we had– it causes a strain, whether that's physical or emotional. Uhm, stress creates a strain, and traumatic experiences are always stressful. Stressful experiences aren't always traumatic, right? And so for lots of people, and you know, who are living through this pandemic, the pandemic is stressful, right? It affects your ability to be able to do the things that you normally want to do. It affects your ability to see the people you want to see, so that could be causing some emotional strain, you know, those kinds of things. And so your kids are at home with you. You can't go to work. You know things that typically created some balance in your life have disappeared, and so there is a significant strain that is caused, and typically, like more clinically, we would think about that as a stressor, right? And I think for families who have experienced loss or had someone in their family get really sick, you know, if there has been a significant amount of exposure to, uhm, whether it's news media or other types of information where kids have had been more aware of the dangers related to the pandemic, I think that if they really developed a significant fear that something was going to cause harm to themselves or to their families, then potentially, we could consider that to be traumatic.
[ADBREAK]
Dr. Lindsay Malloy: At Pandemic Parenting, we're committed to sharing our expertise and research in ways that are immediately accessible and useful to families. As part of our efforts to sustain and expand this work, Amanda and I are also available for virtual speaking engagements at your business organization, PTO and more. We want to help you and those you work with, grow with and raise your children with have the chance to do so in an environment that fosters and supports your mental health. Some of the topics we speak on include parenting during the pandemic, the impact of trauma on children and families, children development, the mental health impact of COVID-19 on employees, and more. If you or your organization are interested in potentially collaborating with us, please reach out for availability and pricing through the request to speaker form on our website at www.pandemic-parent.org/contact.
[END ADBREAK]
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: You know, I've been thinking about it a lot, as this notion of what's called a collective trauma, right? So a trauma that you know is impacting an entire group or a society in our case, you know, sort of global society. And I think that one of the interesting things and conversations I've been having is that people who might not have understood much about trauma before or, you know, just encountered people who've had some of these adverse early childhood experiences. They're much better able to understand, like, oh, this is what it's like when you know all of my resources are taken away, and I can't access my village. And you know all these transitions and disruptions, like you said. So I've been thinking about it a lot in that way, but you know, people's experiences are so different, so for some people, like the domino effect of the stressor, you know as you talked about the pandemic being a stress or the domino effect, can actually lead to some of these more chronic ongoing issues for people that could be traumatic.
Dr. Jen Serico: Absolutely. I think, especially for communities of color and when you look at the disproportionate impact of COVID-19 on those families. And then you combine that, especially for Black and African American families, with the racial trauma of the past year, you know it – that's definitely an indication of complex trauma. And then sort of what you're talking about kind of makes me think about historical trauma, and like ultimately, there may be a point when we look back and say this was absolutely globally a traumatic historical event. And again, we would have to think about the disproportionate impact on certain communities.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah, or these intergenerational pieces. Like I've seen some of these, you know jokes go around, especially in the beginning of the pandemic, about how you know when people have gone through other historical traumas, you know World War Two, various, you know, types of issues like that and they'll talk about “Oh well, my grandparents do this sort of strange thing”, or I never really understood this and I saw a lot of people joke about that in the beginning, you know well our grandkids like I don't know why my you know grandfather always hoards toilet paper or has this need to you know? And it's sort of like– but I actually do wonder, you know, what will be those things that have started to get woven into the fabric of our DNA that are going to be passed down from, you know, that our kids are starting to understand life a little bit differently that in a few years nobody will ever think about, you know. So these things, like we saw the changes in airports after 911, and now we don't even think twice about needing to take our shoes off and not being able to bring liquids. And so it'll be really interesting to see like what are those intergenerational things are, though that'll get passed down right.
Dr. Jen Serico: Yeah, that's a great point. You're so right, like thinking about the response to September 11th and those changes, and even for us who lived through that change, right? It's sort of like, oh yeah, that's right, that did happen after that huge traumatic event that some of us lived through, right? So it's really interesting to also see how– I think that kind of calls attention to how resilient people are, right? That's like, especially when there's something like a situation that so many people are impacted by in such a broad way that you know there is at times the ability to sort of come together and have that resilience to be able to sort of, OK, so these coping mechanisms have changed or how I handle this might have changed, and I'm still able to cope. Yeah, right? And it's when it doesn't feel like we can cope anymore that that's when it becomes like that impact of trauma, right?
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah, so that's a great segue into just sort of thinking about both stress, trauma, and resilience. So in the way you've described it, I'm sort of understanding it as maybe there being this continuum of stress, and so there's you know normal everyday stressors on one end and then on the other end is this really, you know, extreme, absolutely devastating, traumatic events in people's lives. So we've gotten a lot of questions from parents around, like how will I know if my kids are traumatized by this past year. So I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about that continuum and how parents can tell the difference between OK, these are some stressors for my kids, but they're sort of manageable, and here's how they're weathering it versus like no wow, my child is really impacted by this.
Dr. Jen Serico: Right. So I think that it's hard because when there are so many things changing at once, which is what this past year has been like for parents and their kids, it's really hard to know what is the cause of this, right? And so I think that's a big part of it is trying to figure out like you know what– where is my kid at developmentally? And what was my kid’s temperament before, right? Really thinking about what my kid was like in terms of handling situations that were challenging prior to this, and I think for parents with toddlers or really young kids, that's really hard 'cause it's like they're changing so quickly. It's hard to know this is a result of something else and so I think trying to really pay attention to the question of are there significant and consistent changes in your child mood and behavior, and would you say that those have really been notable since either the onset of the pandemic or if there was something that was particularly challenging? Or your child during the pandemic – like that stands out as them not going back to school or they went back to school, and then their school shut down again. Things like that, that maybe stand out as events that might be particularly difficult for your child to deal with. If you're noticing those significant and consistent changes in mood and behavior that really seemed like there was a clear onset or something that happened, then that's really when we'd be thinking, okay, this is significant, and we probably need to get some outside help, right?
Well, as psychologists, there's a whole manual, right? That we use to be able to say OK, this is something that's significant, right? This is something we're going to consider a diagnosis and be able to or choose to then provide some treatment around. And that manual includes a whole section related to trauma and stressor-related disorders, right? It's not just like there's just one diagnosis, and I think a lot of times people think of trauma, they think post-traumatic stress disorder, and so that must be what it is, right? And so yeah, there's a very specific set of criteria for post-traumatic stress disorder, and there are other diagnoses in there. You know we have acute stress disorder, we have adjustment disorders that are all capturing the challenges with stress and with changes for children and how they are then having these more significant functional impairments, right? And that's like one of those clinical terms that I use there. But when you think about functional impairments, it's really thinking, like is my child having difficulties regularly, right? Are we seeing these difficulties? Most people are mostly at home right now. Are we seeing these different difficulties in different experiences at home, right? Where even when we're trying to do something fun together, they're really struggling like–
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Things they used to enjoy, right?
Dr. Jen Serico: Exactly, and seeing that change, yeah.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah, this is really consistent with the study that I did and a number–now I'm seeing results from– a number of other colleagues' similar studies, right? And just sort of seeing some of that decline in the study I did, you know, which is about 450 or so families like in just the first three months we saw pretty concerning changes in kids emotional and behavioral functioning. And so we had about like just under one in four kids showing really concerning downward trends, right? Of lots more emotional-behavioral problems as rated by their parents. And so what I think is really interesting about what you're saying too, is that you know they might not have met criteria for, like you said, post-traumatic stress disorder or we might not clinically say, you know, quote on quote those kids were traumatized, right? But they were showing a lot of challenges and a lot of concerning trends. And so I think that's a really important message for parents that you're saying that it might just not be about, you know, whether they are traumatized. It might be more though, that I'm really seeing my child have more aggression and fighting and tantrums, you know? In my study, we found that younger kids started to show more of those externalizing symptoms. Or it might be that in your older kids, which is what we found in our study that older kids were becoming more depressed, withdrawn, maybe having suicidal thinking, and so there are many ways this can show up in our kids, not just in the traditional sense of, you know, are they traumatized or what that would look like. So what can we do about that? Like you know, I have 3 little kids. I'm trying to figure out for each of them what they need.
I mean the other thing I was thinking is you were talking about, you know, have you noticed changes, especially as being a big indicator is we've been at this for over a year now, and so in some ways, I'm not sure I can even remember what they were like before. I mean, obviously I remember that, but just like was this an issue before, it's now been an issue for so long or so much of the last year that it's really hard for me to have that clear insight into whether this is a change over time, so yeah.
Dr. Jen Serico: I think that sort of, you know, the change piece is really in terms of being able to determine is this trauma or stressor-related, right? That's separate than like, is my child having a significant emotional or behavioral concern that may not be stressor related, right? Or that is still driven by the stressor and is ultimately more of a mood or behavioral issue that's outside of trauma or stress specifically. Does that make sense?
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: OK, yeah, like an indirect effect. So it's not the pandemic specifically, but that it's, you know, they haven't been able to do any of their sports or recreational activities, and so because of that, I'm seeing this increase in aggression or fighting 'cause they don't have that outlet. Is that kind of what you mean?
Dr. Jen Serico: Yeah, or impulsivity or, you know, inattention or any of those things, right? Yeah, so absolutely. So I think that it's important to recognize that like generally what we're thinking about– if we're thinking more broadly outside of trauma and stress, right then, we're always thinking about what our– what's going on with our kids, and how can we best support them. And in that case, like if there are consistent challenges that they're having related to mood or behavioral concerns, and we're seeing those again sort of even in activities that they used to enjoy across different experiences, right? Even though our experiences are more limited now, really, seeing that they are having those significant symptoms, then we would want to do something about that, right? We want to talk to somebody and get some help, and that wouldn't really matter if it was like, oh, this is at the onset of the pandemic, and I'm certain that that's been the cause. Or you know any other reason, right? When our kids are having significant challenges, we want to be able to do something and get them some support, right? And there are kids who are, you know, families that are managing the stressors of the pandemic, right? And sure, there are obviously going to be changes and increased challenges that the kids are having that aren't as consistent or concerning, or at the level that we would say this is really impairing them in day-to-day experiences. Like I can see that every day my kid is really impacted by this, right? And so if there are things where you know you're trying to just create an environment to support your kid as much as possible despite the stressors going on, you know the key that I often talk to parents about is, regardless of the stressors, trying to be as consistent and predictable as possible. Now, that's really hard when in general– That's always really hard. And that's that much harder when everybody has been stuck in the house for a year.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah, and we don't know what's going to happen week to week, month to month, right? There's all this uncertainty. And I mean, yeah, I feel that on a huge level, it's like I intuitively knew, like let's keep as much routine as possible. And let's keep this predictability, but it's like I don't even know on a day-to-day basis what's happening with their school or their Zoom sessions or my work or so yeah, it is just like trying wherever you can to have that sense of routine and sense of consistency. And one thing I was thinking about is, you were saying, that is, that might look different for each of your different kids. You know that was something I needed to just keep reminding myself all throughout the last year is to not be trying to just make blanket decisions for the children, like recognizing each of them has different needs. They're managing this differently. You know it's showing up in their behavior or emotional functioning in different ways, and so how to try to be sort of attuned and meet each of them where they are. 'Cause their needs might be different so that even the consistency you're describing actually might look different for each of your kids.
Dr. Jen Serico: Yeah, and I mean especially like thinking about your kids, right? You have an 11-year-old and a four-year-old, like those are really different ages.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Totally different, right?
Dr. Jen Serico: You have one in the middle too. But you know, just thinking about those, specifically, like those are such different ages and developmentally they're in such different places, but their needs are entirely different. And so, absolutely, I think that's such an important point that based on where they are developmentally and based on what you're seeing in terms of what's working for them, you know that consistency and predictability can be different for each kid, for sure.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: And that's been hard. I just want to sort of say this to other parents like that's exhausting, right? It's hard to sort of track each of them in line with your own mental health and needs yourself as you're dealing with all of this loss and uncertainty too, and so it's just a lot to kind of keep tracking each person, so yeah.
Dr. Jen Serico: That last thing you, sorry I don't mean to cut you off, but like that last piece of what you just said, which is like keeping track of your own mental health like as a parent you can't care for your kids if you're not caring for yourself. And I think that with the way that I think, especially mothers, in particular, you know the expectations are so high, and the expectations during the pandemic, in particular, have been so, so high on moms, and it's so hard to prioritize that self-care. And especially for kids who have experienced trauma or having this ongoing stress, like without your own ability to care for yourself like, like it's going to be that much harder for them, right? Because if we're not taking care of ourselves, then like our own ability to regulate our emotions is going to be way off. And then those reactions, those responses to situations that feel like they shouldn't be a big deal to a kid are then going to feel like a big deal and for a kid who's experienced trauma and even for kids who are having this ongoing stress and these ongoing changes, that unpredictability that already exists in the world, then having that increased at home because their parent is so overwhelmed is just going to make things so much worse.
So I think it's so hard for parents to be able to remind themselves like I need to take time to take care of myself. And it's essential, you know it's also modeling, right? So if a parent is able to take that time and to be able to say, like you know I need a minute, I need to take a deep breath, I need to do something to take care of myself, that's actually modeling for kids coping strategies. And in doing that, then kids are learning, oh OK, this is a way for me to be able to handle something, right? They're seeing that in action, and the way that most kids learn the most, especially in early childhood, is through that modeling.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Now, it is so important, and at the same time, it's been one of those sort of frustrating things throughout the pandemic for me, and I know so many of the parents we've been talking with is like, I know, I know, self care all that stuff, when? How? You tell me. You know? And so for me that's just had to show up in different ways you know, and it's interesting.
I was just reading an article a couple of days ago with a term I'd never heard before, which was something like I might get it wrong, but revenge bedtime procrastination? And it was talking about how people have been staying up really late in the pandemic, and you're just like you're doing nothing productive, you know? And I was realizing like yeah, I was like I feel so attacked by this article. This is exactly what I've been doing. But it– but that weirdly was my self care. Interestingly, the point of the article was just how detrimental it can be to your sleep hygiene and those kinds of things. But for me it was literally the half-hour a day I get when everybody is finally in bed. I can just do what I want. Nobody needs anything from me. There's no emotional meltdowns I need to manage, and I can just have some time to myself. And so there was always a cost-benefit, right, of I know I'm going to be tired 'cause I stayed up way later than I should.
But that weirdly was the self-care I needed, and that was the tradeoff. And so I think it's just important to emphasize that taking care of yourself can look really different right now, you know. And so we've written a couple blogs about this idea of just, you know it, it might be the best self-care you do is to say no to something, or, you know, advocate for what we need. So you're exactly right that we really can't take care of our kids in effective ways if we're not taking care of ourselves. So related to that, you know, the pandemic isn't the only trauma people experience, of course, and it's not going to be the last thing that you know we experience. That's really hard, or our kids might experience, so I want to talk just sort of generally about this idea of, you know, what trauma-informed parenting is and just what can parents do? Let's start with just prevention. Like, what can I do as a parent to prevent trauma for my kids, if anything?
Dr. Jen Serico: So you know that's the thing. Like it would be great to be able to say, you know, you can prevent trauma. You're going to keep your kids safe, right?
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah, put them in that bubble. It’s going to be just fine.
Dr. Jen Serico: That's great, yeah. Most parents' goal is to keep their kids safe, so like, can you prevent trauma? Sure, you can decide I'm not going to maltreat my child, right? And so that's a great choice. Yes, absolutely. So you can potentially prevent that trauma from happening in home and like we can't look at a person and know that they're going to maltreat our child. We can't predict a natural disaster or this sudden loss of somebody that we care about or a serious accident, right? If we could predict those things, we would live in a totally different world, and it wouldn't be real.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Right.
Dr. Jen Serico: You know, we can't ultimately prevent trauma from happening, right? Because these are not things that we predict or plan for. We can do everything possible to keep our kids safe, and there are still going to be things that can happen, right? We can feel like I really trust this person, and then that person may end up, you know, causing harm to our child. Hopefully, those things don't happen, and sometimes they do, and so you know, recognizing I think parents want so much to be able to keep their kids safe. There is so much guilt that comes with a child experiencing trauma that parents experience and really one of the things that I do with parents in those situations is really help them understand that like it is not their fault that this happened, that they can't predict these experiences that they have done everything possible to keep their kids safe, you know? And so I think that that's really important for parents to realize that, like as much as we want to do everything possible to keep our kids safe, there are things that are out of our control, right? And that's one of the things about becoming a parent is that, like everything is suddenly out of your control, and so it's there's also, just this level of acceptance, that kind of has to come with that of there are going to be these things that I can't control, and you know how can I create safety and consistency in ways that feel good for my family and for me.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah, no, you're absolutely right, and I've always loved that characterization of, you know, when you have a child, a part of your heart starts living outside of your body and it is– It's like you really can't put this bubble around that piece of your heart out there. But we can do things to try to help them, you know. I want to go back to when you were talking about resiliency, to be more resilient and to navigate their way through these really difficult things, you know, better than in other cases, and so let's talk a little bit about that. Like what can we do when our kids are going to go through lots of difficult things in their lives? What are some ways as parents we can support them through that?
Dr. Jen Serico: So I think one of the most important things is to understand the impact of trauma and recognizing when a child has experienced a traumatic event, they don't– everything has felt like they've lost control, right? And like things are now suddenly so unpredictable. And so recognizing that like your child’s behavior and emotional responses are most likely driven by those traumatic events. And so I think, for parents there's this tendency to want to manage that, and I think recognizing that if there are ways that you can show some acceptance and be able to validate some of that, the pain that your child is experiencing, the behavioral responses that they're experiencing, you know, that can make a big difference. And so the only way that I think parents are able to do that is if they really do understand that impact of trauma and stress on their child.
And so part of that– what helps with that is knowing sort of the signs and symptoms of trauma and of trauma-related disorders. And so if you know your child has been through a traumatic event, being able to then get some support so that you have that understanding because you shouldn't be expected to like to learn all of that on your own, right? That's why there are people out there like me who do this work and like you who do this work and lots of people who you know are really committed to providing interventions related to trauma. And one of the most important parts of most of those interventions, especially, sort of the gold standard treatments for trauma, is that there's some psychoeducation provided that families learn about trauma that they learn about trauma symptoms that they understand the impact of trauma, and that they start to be able to make those connections between certain behavioral responses or certain emotional responses, and how those are related to the traumatic events that the child experienced.
So those are some ways, you know, and then I think there's a tendency for parents to want to really know everything, right? And like they want to sort of have their kid talk about, and I think in general, right, there's this tendency that when all adults are interacting with kids to just ask tons of questions, right? That's actually not super helpful for our kids because, you know, kids have this amazing ability to express themselves and to be creative. And the more we are kind of guiding those conversations or taking control of those, the harder it is for them to do some of that expression on their own. And so I think giving kids space, you know, I think parents when they think a traumatic event has occurred or they know that a traumatic event has occurred, there's this desire to, like, ask a million questions and find out like what happened. Because they're anxious and upset that something terrible could have happened to their child. Of course, that response makes sense. And it's not necessarily the most effective response for your kid, so trying to avoid that pressure on your child, trying to avoid the kind of repetitive questions and really, when they are willing to share, when they are opening up, creating a space that allows, you know, them to talk and you to really listen. And then that's really important. And then I think, you know, one of the things that we've talked about already is just when we see that there is a significant impact on their functioning, knowing that we can ask for help and trying to change some help and support so that we can learn more as parents about the impact of trauma and the signs and symptoms of trauma, like I mentioned earlier, so that we can do more of that validating and do more of that modeling of using skills.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah, I oh, I think I have so many thoughts in response to all of that. I think the reminders, especially about right, just not firing questions at your kids. And I mean, I've been there so I'm not saying that from any place of judgment, like you're so worried you want all the information I need to know what's going on, right?
Dr. Jen Serico: Of course, yeah.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: But it just makes me think about, you know, sometimes when we do that, obviously that is more about as you were saying, kind of assuring our own anxiety about this guilt about this, like I just need to know more information. I need to know exactly what happened, and it makes me think about, you know, my youngest tells me often, will say –of course, right when he’s supposed to be going to bed– but Mom, I need to tell you a question. And that's always how he says it. I have to tell you a question, and I just– It's always sort of stayed with me the way he words that. Which, you know, a lot of young kids word it that way before they kind of understand how to phrase that sentence. But it's just a good reminder about when I am asking my kids some of these questions in these difficult situations, it's, in many cases, more about me telling them a question, right? It's like whatever my fear is, or my worry coming through in that question that I'm trying to convey to them then rather than as you were saying, actually listening and really letting them control and drive that which I think comes more from, you know, as you were saying, kind of creating the time and space for those conversations to come up when they are comfortable. If that's just I'm laying next to them in bed at night, and we're just kind of hanging out, not really talking about much that organically, then that's when they'll bring it up. But not when I you know, need to ask you about everything that happened because then I'm telling them questions. Which is really probably more about me than them, right?
Dr. Jen Serico: Yeah, and I think you know you mentioned that need to ask questions and where it comes from, right? And that there is that anxiety. And I think the other piece of that is like, again, it kind of goes back to that modeling, right? Being able to model the ability to manage stress and to cope with change. And I think when there are traumatic events in particular, parents are incredibly upset and hurt by that, right? And, and I think that those are super valid feelings and I think figuring out ways to kind of manage those effectively, especially depending on how your kid is responding, right? So there are situations where it makes the most sense to do some, like if a family has experienced a shared traumatic event right, then it is – it totally makes sense for a parent to have an emotional response to that and to be able to exhibit that response in a way that, you know, the child can understand and see. And at the same time what often happens is that parents are having these really big emotional responses that make sense based on the situation and kids are being exposed to these big emotional responses and they don't necessarily fit the kid's response, or a parent is upset because the kid's response doesn't match their own, right? And so I think just the awareness that people respond to situations differently, that kids respond to situations differently than adults do and that different situations can result in those different coping responses. Whether they're adaptive or not so adaptive, yeah. And so being able to really do as much as possible if the parent is in a position where they can get to a place where they can manage their emotional response and have some of that emotional regulation, because, again, that's modeling. It's OK to get upset. It's OK to have these emotions. And we can manage them.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah! I think there's even like simple examples of that too, where we're just processing it differently or on different timelines. As you said, you know, I talked with a lot of parents. I remember at the beginning of the pandemic around, you know, “Well, I'm so upset that my, you know, daughter, is not going to get to have her senior prom, but she doesn't seem fazed at all.” And so it would be sort of that parent coming, but you know, but I'm so upset, and I keep telling her how sad I am for her about this, and it was like, well, wait a minute if she is actually managing it OK, like don't– you should have those feelings, you're entitled to them, and you should be able to process them. But don't do that with her because you don't want to put on her this grief that you're feeling that she's maybe not in the same way, you know, or vice versa. So from your perspective, what does trauma-informed parenting look like? What's really important about that?
Dr. Jen Serico: I would go back to like really trying to create that safe space and a lot of that safety, especially after a kid has had significant stress or a traumatic event, they feel like things are so unpredictable and so that consistency and predictability, which means you know acceptance of where they're at, right? And so some of that validation, you know, being able to engage in play and things like that, having those positive experiences with a parent. And also clearing consistent limits, which I think a lot of times when you know a traumatic event has occurred, there is this tendency to think, well I'm just going to let my kid do whatever, and that actually makes a kid feel less safe and makes things feel less predictable. I think that consistency and predictability, with that understanding that there needs to be, you know, those positive interactions that there needs to be that acceptance, and that there also needs to be, you know, some limits and some consistency around safety. And then I think, you know, I mentioned before having parents understand the impact of trauma, recognizing the signs and symptoms of trauma, and responding in ways that support their child without causing further retraumatization. So that can mean creating ways to help them feel safe. And again, that can be through consistency and predictability that may be through actually creating some like safety steps in certain areas depending on the traumatic event and then recognizing the impact of the child's trauma on your own self-care as a parent. Going back to having the parent be able to regulate their own emotions and having the parent be practicing and modeling those self-care and those emotional regulation strategies for their kid.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah, those are great tips. Thank you. So my last question for you is, if you could give parents one piece of advice right now, what would that be?
Dr. Jen Serico: Take care of yourselves. I know it's the hardest thing to do, and again, it's really about like if you are taking care of yourselves, then you're in a better place to be able to take care of your kids. You can be modeling those things that I was talking about. You have more of a capacity to, even if it's for a short time, engage in those positive interactions with them, right? If you're not taking care of yourself, then it's going to be, “OK, we gotta get through the day, we gotta get through this, and there's no time for enjoyment or engagement”, right? It's just one thing to the next, and for lots of families, that's how it's been for a long time. Pre-pandemic or not, right? And like being able to kind of have this space and have that time is going to be a lot easier if you're taking care of yourself.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Thank you and thank you so much for talking with us today and sharing all this great wisdom.
Dr. Jen Serico: Yeah, it's my pleasure. Always a joy to see you.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: You too.
[MUSIC INTERLUDE]
Dr. Lindsay Malloy: Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Pandemic Parenting Podcast. Make sure to hit, follow or subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or whichever platform you're listening on to be notified of future episodes. We'd also love to connect with you on social media. Look for our blue and yellow logo when you search Pandemic Parenting on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, or YouTube, and you'll find us or follow the links in the show notes.
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Dr. Lindsay Malloy: Thanks for listening, and we hope you can join us next time.
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