Grief & Growth Go Hand In Hand

podcast
Written By Pandemic Parenting

Co-founders of Pandemic Parenting, Dr. Amanda Zelechoski and Dr. Lindsay Malloy, share some of the best research and advice they’ve held onto during the COVID-19 pandemic. They discuss how their mindsets have changed to embrace “good enough” parenting and how we can acknowledge the loss of the past year and the growth that comes hand-in-hand with it.

Learn more about topics and resources mentioned in this episode:

Bite-Sized Excerpts from This Episode

 

What is the most important thing for parents to remember?

Parents, It’s Okay That Things Aren’t Going Well

It's Okay to Grieve and Grow

“Parenting” is a New Concept

The “Good Enough” Parenting Philosophy

A Tip for “Good Enough” Parenting

Your Ability to Adapt is Pretty Amazing

Your Child Wants You as Their Parent, Flaws and All

Kids Will Remember this Pandemic Differently than You May Think

 
 

Full Audio Transcript

[THEME MUSIC UNDER INTRO] 

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Can you say... “This is Dr. Amanda Zelechoski.” 

Child 1: Why do we have to? 

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Just try it! 

Child 1: I can't. 

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Deep breath. 

Child 2: [Laughter] This is Dr. Amanda Zelechoski. 

Child 3: [Yelling] Lindsay Malloy! Ah! 

Dr. Lindsay Malloy: Wait, say Doctor Lindsay Malloy. 

Child 3: [Yelling] Dr. Lindsay Malloy! 

Dr. Lindsay Malloy: [Laughing] No, come back! 

Child 4: This is Dr. Lindsay Malloy. 

Child 2: Welcome to the [unintelligible] Parenting Podcast (laugher).  

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: [Laughter]. 


Dr. Lindsay Malloy: One more time. 

Child 4: And then after that can I have a candy? 

Dr. Lindsay Malloy: [Laughing] No. 

Child 4: Please, Mommy!  

Dr. Lindsay Malloy: Okay, ready? 

Child 4: The Pandemic Parenting Podcast! 

Dr. Lindsay Malloy: Excellent! 

[MUSIC INTERLUDE] 

Dr. Lindsay Malloy: All right, we're doing this thing right. 

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: We're doing it. 

Dr. Lindsay Malloy: OK, welcome to the Pandemic Parenting Podcast. I'm Dr. Lindsay Malloy.

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: And I'm Dr. Amanda Zelechoski. We are two psychologists, scholars and moms and together were the Co founders of pandemic parenting. 

Dr. Lindsay Malloy: We're here to share science-based research and to help all who care for kids navigate this challenging time together. 

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: In this first episode we want to introduce ourselves introduce our work as Pandemic Parenting. We're going to share some of the best research and advice out there that we've held onto during the pandemic and we're going to talk about growth and how we think about growth during these difficult times. 

Dr. Lindsay Malloy: Excellent, so I guess we can start off with just who we are. So I’m Lindsay and a mom of two, so I have a 3 year old and a 5 year old who were two and four at the start of the pandemic in sort of March 2020. And I'm also a professor and associate professor of psychology. My specialization is in developmental psychology, and I do research on children memory and, really, children functioning and involvement in the legal system. 

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: And I, Amanda. I'm also a psychologist. Also, an associate professor of psychology. My specialty areas are primarily focused on trauma in the juvenile justice and criminal justice systems. I am also a mom. I have three kids ages eleven, eight, and five. And yeah, I spend a lot of time teaching and thinking about a lot of these issues that I think we're going to dive into tonight. 

Dr. Lindsay Malloy: In some ways it seems a little weird that we both mentioned kind of specializing in trauma and involvement in, you know, the legal or justice systems in some ways. So it might seem kind of strange that we are hosting a podcast on parenting. Neither of us research parenting per say, but it just sort of made sense in a multitude of different ways I guess for us to start this little adventure that we've been on for the last eight months or so. I don't know if you want to explain since it was, it was your vision. 

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah, how we came to be here talking about this, exactly. So I think that Lindsey and I were both in similar situations just around this time a year ago. You know, when the pandemic was coming, we sort of had this inkling you know, a lot of us did that this is something coming our way, it could get pretty bad. And when you study you know issues of adversity and child trauma and things like that like we do. I think one of the rare things in our field is that you know, we don't usually know these things are coming. You know when you think about a lot of crises like 911, Hurricane Katrina, school shootings, you know? 

We can study the aftermath of those things, but we don't know they're coming, obviously, before they do. So this was a really rare situation where we knew a crisis was headed our way and there were ways to study that and figure out how people were doing right before it happened, right as it was happening. And then you know it happened. And so we both sort of dove in with our respective research labs and colleagues to do studies on this. You know, I, partly for me selfishly it was. I didn't know how I was going to get through this.

Being a working parent, you know, having my kids home round the clock all of a sudden still trying to do my job and fill all my responsibilities. So I was pretty worried about how tense things were going to get in my house, and I knew lots of other people were. And when things get tense in homes, that's when we notice things like child maltreatment rates tend to skyrocket. So that was really what sort of motivated me to do some research on this. And that was kind of the start, which you know we can talk more about the organization, but why did you do the study that you did? 

Dr. Lindsay Malloy: Well, I guess I'm you know I am someone who studies childrens memory, I was very interested from the get go and how kids were going to experience this and how eventually you know, look back on it and think about it and how they would feel about it, what they would remember about it maybe versus how us as adults would. We're sort of, you know, encoding and remembering that this weird experience, which of course I thought was going to last a few weeks and and now here we are. 

And so that was really my motivation. So let's start a study. Let's get some initial data on how these kids and families are coping. And let's also look at how parents are talking to their kids about COVID-19 and how that might affect how kids are coping and how they remember this experience. And so our study was really focused on family communication, about COVID-19, but then it just sort of kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger and we're, you know, we're still looking at this.

And that's really one of the big reasons we started Pandemic Parenting was to try to get research to parents directly. The findings that we knew were going to be coming out of our own labs, but out of lots and lots of people's labs because we are not the only psychologists or social scientists who who you know sort of took their focus. And dove in with studies as this was beginning last year. So we really wanted to have a way of getting that science that research to parents directly, because that's kind of a rare thing these days. 

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah, for sure I was really worried in my study about parents' stress, I mean that was the thing I was particularly focused on. And so I think we both were learning things from these studies pretty quickly and just felt like they could be helpful to families and parents right now so, yeah. So last summer you know we dove in, we decided to figure out a way to get this into the hands of the people who really need it right now in accessible ways. You know we've been bringing in lots of experts to talk with us about their research. 

As you said, lots of people have been studying this from really interesting angles, you know? Everything from screen time to how the holidays look different and how that's going to impact families. What this has been like for single parents, you know? So we've really been fortunate to have so many amazing experts join us for these conversations to share with us what they've learned and what parents need to focus on most right now. 

Dr. Lindsay Malloy: Yes, 'cause we very quickly realized that not only would parents be interested in findings that were coming out about the pandemic and about how kids and families were coping with it and what you know what was sort of quote unquote “best for their kids”  but also just the this– the kind of regular everyday psychology stuff, right? What we know from clinical psych from developmental psych that could be useful for parents who don't have the time to go out and buy and read a 300 page book right now. Well, probably ever usually, but you know, especially in the middle of the pandemic. 

And so how can you know that you're getting good credible information? And also how can you get that in a sort of more bite-sized format and not something like committing to reading a whole textbook? And so we're really trying to do that work of pulling out the most relevant interesting bits for parents and getting them to them directly. And so that has pushed us to do all of these webinars that are freely available on our website at www.pandemic-parent.org but also start this podcast because as a parent myself, I listen to a lot of podcasts because when I'm listening to a podcast I can do lots of other things like you know, any number of multitasking that you have to do as a parent. And so that was kind of part of our hope here is that this would be an accessible way to get information to parents. 

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah. My favorite way to think about, you know, what we've been doing the last 8-9 months or so, and what we're doing with this podcast is, you know, you have all these great parent books or websites or articles that you bookmarked or meant to, you know, I know I need to get to those and in the middle of the night, you know when you're trying to get a sleeping baby to sleep or in the middle of the day when you're desperate to sort of pull your fighting kids apart, you know?

I just need an answer like “I don't have time to sit down and read that 300 page book, so I just need to quickly know what I need to do right now or what's most important in this situation?” and I think that's what we've been trying to do is really distill down the most important takeaways from a lot of the science. A lot of the experts, you know, really just give those to people quickly and like you said in ways that they can just access while they're multitasking while they have a quick minute in between other tasks so that that's our hope, that's what we've been doing, and that's what we're going to continue to do, as as long as it's helpful. 

Dr. Lindsay Malloy: Yes, we'd like to, with this podcast, you know, bring on other guest experts that we can cover, you know, various topics. With this– so, that's I think one of our goals moving forward. But we've also had a lot of incredible guests on our webinars and put together lots of resources to pull from like, you know, our different video clips and such, but what do you think Amanda? That you've kind of from all of that content catalog sort of thing that we have at this point from all these different webinars we've done, what is some advice or recommendations that you hold onto, because of course, even though we're psychologists, we are not experts in some of the topics that we have had, like sibling conflict. And so we've been right there alongside you, you know, taking notes and trying to figure out how to make these things work for our own families. 

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah, and we're also not perfect parents by any stress so– 

Dr. Lindsay Malloy: Yeah, exactly, don’t tell my kids that. 

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: –yeah. We've been learning a lot of things right along with all of the pandemic parents, you know, who've joined us for a lot of these conversations. So I think for me, one of the things I've pulled away that you know from one of our earliest webinars that I keep coming back to again and again – I find myself telling friends and colleagues reminding them again and again – is the advice we got from Dr. Bruce Perry who joined us, you know, a number of months ago to talk about how to build resilience both in us as parents and in our kids. And you know, one of the things he reminded us several times in that conversation was how at the end of the day, what is most important is that kids feel safe and loved. 

That we're getting so distracted and so worried about all of you know, the different ways we're beating ourselves up as parents and are they having to our kids having too much of this and not enough of this? And you know what are all the ways I'm screwing my kids up right now? Or the decisions that I'm making aren't right and said they need to feel safe and loved. So all of these other things. You know, whether it's remote learning, worried about screen time or lack of social connection to their friends, you know, are we doing our best to make them feel safe and to make them feel loved and connected right now? And that's as much as we can really be asking of ourselves for our kids, because that's what's most important and is going to help all of our resilience in this. So that's been one that I really held onto. What about you? 

Dr. Lindsay Malloy: Yeah, same, I mean that one has, yeah, that one definitely resonated and I feel like this pandemic has really stripped down, you know, kind of to the bare bones of things in many ways. Some of the decisions I used to stress over seem so silly and pointless now, and really coming back to that– those two things over and over again. I think it's great too that, you know, after we had Dr. Bruce Perry on our webinar, he's now doing, you know, he just did an interview with Oprah, so obviously that was, you know, the result of our Pandemic Parenting definitely yeah, yeah no [laughs].

So we were just so lucky to have him come on and talk with us. That was amazing and I think related to what he was saying, but also what you know John Comer who was on when we discussed green time and who's done lots of research looking at the aftermath of various disasters, he's got a lot of research on kids reactions to the Boston Marathon bombing for example, and other, you know, really traumatic events is the importance of predictability and routines in kids lives. And even from the very youngest up until you know even the teenagers.

And that is something that I remember when the pandemic first kind of started and people were posting these adorable homeschool schedules on social media and stuff and I just thought, like you know, “I'm not going to be able to do that or I'm not–” But it really quickly became evident how important that kind of thing was going to be. Maybe not that exact thing like a homeschooling schedule. But how important the kids having predictability in their lives, having some sense of control and certainty, and a routine when everything in their lives have been upended and changed so suddenly, and so I, you know, I definitely noticed differences.  Just you know, anecdotally, with my own kids once I implemented more structure in our days and so that was something that really, really hit home with me, yeah. 

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah, and I even noticed that when my husband and I like– when we'd have our different sort of days where we were taking, you know, trading who was working and who was managing the kids and you know the way we each did our schedules were quite different from one another, and the kids were aware of that and would say, “well, wait a minute yesterday with Dad, his is how we did it and why are you doing it in this order?” And so like even for that we had to try to kind of get on the same page for them, even though we might have, you know, usually done things a little differently. 

So yeah, so I think that predictability is really a big piece of this. So there's been, yeah, so many lessons we've learned. I'm sure we're going to talk about, you know, more of those incoming conversations and just have more conversations with, you know, additional experts that we're looking forward to bringing on the podcast. So I'm sort of thinking about in– addition to, you know, the experts, we've learned from some of the biggest lessons I think you and I both feel what we've learned have been from other parents have been from questions they've submitted, you know, comments they've made either live or sent in to us, things that that are on their hearts and minds that they really want us to tackle. So I was, you know, wondering what sort of stuck with you that, as far as stories or comments or that we've heard from parents? 

Dr. Lindsay Malloy: Yeah. One thing that really stands out was actually in one of our most recent webinars. It was Adriana in Ontario, who asked “how are we supposed to do this?” It was our webinar focused on working moms and it was just such a simple question but it just– it felt, you know, like wait a second, yeah, how are we supposed to do this? And so we had some great discussions with Amy Knopf and Jess Calarco about, well, okay, we're not actually supposed to do this. This is not sustainable. This is not something that you can actually have balance in. I think just having that permission to realize it's okay that it's not going very well because it's actually completely unmanageable and not sustainable to think that it's going to and you're not supposed to be doing this. 

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah, I think it is that– those feelings that you know are evoked in the comments that people have sent to us and, you know, questions and concerns and topics they want us to tackle. And what I think maybe we're most proud of in this work is just providing a community for other parents to know that they're not alone, you know? And that's not just in our live webinars, but in all of our various social media, you know, channels. And there's quite a significant contingent on Facebook and Twitter and, you know, Instagram and LinkedIn that are commenting and following. And what we hear from people is– it's so nice to know I'm not alone and that's one of the things that's stuck with me. 

Susan in California who had reached out and said, “you know, it's really refreshing to jump into these webinars, because I know I'm not alone in my feelings, other parents are struggling too and don't have it figured out either.” And it was like, yes, that's exactly what we're trying to do is, you know, peel away the perfect Instagram images people think you know they're seeing and then think like why am I the only one who doesn't have it figured out? Am I the only parent who’s still struggling a year later. And you know when we hear comments like this, it just – it reminds me of pretty early in the pandemic, you know? I needed to channel my frustration and grief in some way.

And I love to be creative and do crafty things and so I was sewing a lot of masks right along with this huge community, you know, in my geographic area. All these people that were sewing masks and so we're part of this huge Facebook group and I just remember, you know, the only time I could do it was like very late at night, once my kids were finally in bed. And just the solidarity of knowing like there were all these other, you know, primarily women, I knew in this group up late at night, cranking away on their sewing machines too.

All of us trying to help, and that's what I felt with our pandemic parenting community too, is like knowing, you know when I'm up in the middle of the night working and responding to emails at 1:00 AM, 'cause that's the only time I can do it amidst everything else, so are thousands upon thousands of other parents trying to manage this too, in the ways that work for them. And so I've just felt really humbled and grateful for the opportunity to know that we are building a community and that we have provided that solidarity and support that people are feeling– knowing, alright, other parents are struggling like I am, but we're you know we're trying to figure it out and lift each other up. 

[MUSIC INTERLUDE - SPONSOR BREAK]

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: At Pandemic Parenting, we're committed to sharing our expertise and research in ways that are immediately accessible and useful to families. As part of our efforts to sustain and expand this work, Lindsay and I are also available for virtual speaking engagements at your business, organization, PTO, and more. We want to help you and those who you work with and grow with and raise your children with, have the chance to do so in an environment that fosters and supports your mental health. 

Some of the topics we enjoy speaking on include parenting during the pandemic, the impact of trauma on children and families, child development, the mental health impact of COVID-19 on employees, and more. If you or your organization are interested in potentially collaborating, please reach out to us for availability and pricing through the request to speaker form on our website at www.pandemic-parent.org/contact. 

[MUSIC ENDS - END SPONSOR BREAK]

Dr. Lindsay Malloy: Hearing from what other parents were going through, also, you know, made me realize that these are really kind of developmentally oriented problems that people are having. That you know all parents really are struggling and a lot of times you'll see people say “oh well, it's so much easier for me because mine are older,” but it doesn't seem to really be that way. I mean, everybody has their sets of challenges associated with different age groups. I mean, we did a whole webinar focused on teen mental health, specifically because we were getting so many questions about “okay, well what about teens?”

And of course, Amanda and I have younger kids and so a lot of our bias or focus or what have you has been on the younger age groups and some of Amanda's research did show that in some ways the, you know, the parents of those younger kids were stressed more, but everyone, every parent is struggling right now it seems and that, you know, you really have to think about. It really depends on the ages and characteristics of the children in the family and of the parents too, of course. 

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah, that's right, that's right. The worries look different, the kinds of struggles look different, especially for parents of older kids, you know? We've started to recently hear from a lot of parents just worried about, you know, falling behind academically. Like what is this going to mean for my child and their opportunities? And just this sort of worry about the long term effects, whereas I think a lot of our conversations with parents of younger kids it's just that day-to-day management of my child's emotion, you know, flux– emotional fluctuation that I'm trying to manage and it's everything, you know?

Just supervision and making sure everybody is safe and occupied and you know those kinds of things during the day. So yeah, so I– I agree the struggles look different, but it doesn't mean that parents of kids of different ages are not struggling just because their kids might be at a different developmental stage. 

Dr. Lindsay Malloy: Now that we are kind of one year in or so from– if we want to think about growth, during this time and not to put, you know, we don't want to put like a toxic positivity spin on it or anything, but thinking about how we've grown as parents and just in general how people grow during difficult and traumatic times. 

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah, I think a couple things like this come up, you know, for me, I think a lot about as a, you know, trauma researcher, the idea of grief and because grief and growth grow, go hand in hand and so, so you know a lot of times people think like you said “oh, when we have these losses, you know, let's just go right to Silver Linings. And here's all the ways I've grown from this.” Or you know, whatever shows resilience and it's, like, well, hold on there's a lot that we're grieving, and so I really think we need to think about the role that grief has played in this. And how actually grief can lead to growth because they go hand in hand. So grief, is really this inevitable part of life, you know, it's something that we're going to experience a lot.

We've most definitely experienced it a lot throughout the pandemic, and just in different ways. People tend to think about grief as always meaning, oh, you know, the loss of a loved one because of a death, but think about all the different things that we've lost, you know? Over the last year and that our kids have lost, you know, activities, things that are really important to them, milestones they were supposed to meet. There are different things that you know I'm grieving more than my kids for sure, and so I have to honor and recognize the things that I'm grieving. And so I think one of the things that, as we think about growth, it's moving from that alright, you know, we sort of acknowledge and recognize all of the different ways we've experienced grief. Our kids have experienced grief and we've allowed ourselves to feel the pain of that loss so that we now can grow from it. And so I think that's been really important. 

It's going to be an important piece for all of us before we can get to the both are acknowledging the loss, letting those feelings be there as they have needed to fluctuate throughout the last year. AndI think this one year milestone is a big one for people. Anniversaries like this tend to be these stark reminders of “wow I can't believe we've been at this for a year and now we're about to hit, you know? Anniversaries of all of those things, we didn't get to do and so that's important to sort of honor, as I said and recognize before you can start to move to “wow, here's all the ways we've grown from this.” So I think that's a big piece of it, but it's also thinking about how our parenting has evolved. And I love the way that you think and talk about, you know, parenting as sort of a verb. So I wonder if you could try that, yeah? 

Dr. Lindsay Malloy: Yeah. So I mean, I think about growth like gardening, right? Like it reminded me of the gardening metaphor that when we were preparing for the mom guilt webinar and I was kind of looking at research on parenting and what, you know, historically has parenting been like and read this great– I think it was called like a manifesto against parenting or something? It was a Wall Street Journal article with a really famous developmental psychologist, Alison Gopnik, but she talked about how in, you know, it wasn't really until like the 70s that the idea of parenting or parenting as a verb really started to be thrown around more. And now we hear it all the time, right?  So parenting is something that you do– almost like another full time job as opposed to something that you are. Like, I am a parent, no. I engage in parenting.

It's like this big thing. So her article is really great and thinking about parenting not as like a carpenter who's sort of, you know, I've got to get all the right pieces together and build this child like a sort of manufacturer. This product that I'm going to say– this is a successful product like you know, introducing my child, this product, but to think about more as being a gardener and cultivating you know that child and giving the child space to grow and to become the person that they are, or that they're you know, supposed to be, and that takes a lot of the pressure off the parent because you know, it's not about like, well, I have to. Do the exact right things and I have to get all the right ingredients in place in order to create this, you know? This product so it's just a different way of thinking about it, but that– I think resonates with me, especially in thinking about growth. And you know the child is growing as well as you are growing as a parent and in your parenting styles. 

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah, it's definitely felt more “verb” to me this past year than now. Like– I don't know? Yeah. I have done so much more parenting around the clock it feels like then I have ever done with all this time at home. So yeah, so it just makes me wonder like has your view then of parenting changed over the last year, throughout the pandemic?

Dr. Lindsay Malloy: I think it has. I think it has had to. I mean, I think that I in some ways didn't really have a choice but to kind of adapt some of my thinking or change some of my thinking. We talked– we've talked quite extensively about this idea of “good enough parenting,” and I think that's, you know, I've tried to come back to that, like that, you know, this idea that you can do quite a lot of harm by being very bad at parenting. And by very bad, I mean, you know abusive, neglectful, but you're not going to do that much good by being the quote unquote super parent, right? 

Like the Pinterest perfect, Instagram friendly parent. That isn't actually going to have that, you know, much of a positive effect or maybe even not any positive effect on kids. And so you really just need to be good enough– is what the philosophy is. And I think that that's something we can really hold onto hopefully right now. Especially because it's hard if not impossible to be the “super parent” right now, so you gotta kind of let yourself off the hook on that. 

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah, I think for me, my views have sometimes– I mean I think it's that I always knew this stuff intellectually, I guess. Especially because of, you know, our training and the ways we were taught to think about parents, the ways we teach others about parenting and what's important, but man, when you're thrust into it– like one of the things that I felt like really just was in my face a lot this year was how I need to parent my kids differently. Like I need to meet each of them where they're at and sort of track that and stay attuned to that instead of us making decisions, you know, about the kids as a collective unit. 

I had to start to sort of figure out okay, well this child is struggling in this way and here is maybe you know what I need to do to meet his need or advocate for him like this. Or you know, whatever put this kind of structure, whereas this kid is struggling in this way. And so I need to approach this differently. And so that became really important when we were all home all day long together under the same roof of trying to meet each person's needs a little bit differently, which might mean making different decisions for each of them. So I think trying to be sort of the– instead of like you said, you know, the perfect parent as I thought about what good enough parenting looked like for me. 

This year– it was how do I sort of be the right parent for this kid right now? Kind of in this moment, and that didn't always look the same like it could change week to week. And you know, and a lot of times I screwed it up and then would– I'd have to come back and say, okay, you know, well, let's figure out what didn't work there. So that helped me a lot to kind of think about each of them as individuals and then you know me as an individual to like when do I need to tap out for an hour? 

And I was so, you know, sort of lucky and privileged to have a partner helping me do this, and so I could tap out for ten minutes here and there if I needed to or he could too, if he was at his wits end. So that was a big thing of just trying to parent each of them and meet each of them where they were in those moments, but also p.s., that's exhausting like that– that sort of emotion regulation or we've talked about it as co-regulation. You know all day long, every day for everybody. This sort of pandemic parenting dance, you know, that we've written about in our work for this for pandemic parenting of just what that looks like. It's exhausting. 

Dr. Lindsay Malloy: Yes! I definitely feel that and I've never been a good dancer, so you know, there's that as well. I can't even remember– something that you just said reminded me of this idea of that– you said very early on… I think it was our very first webinar about making decisions and that was “it works until it doesn't”. And that's something that really has stuck out to me the whole time and something that has influenced my parenting, because I tend to catastrophize, if that's a word.

Like, okay, well if I say yes to the screen time today because I need to get through this meeting then what does that mean for tomorrow and next week and next month? It's like. No, actually, let's just get through right now. And I think that, you know, that's what might work for me today or this week, but it doesn't mean that it has to stick. We can change things. We can make new decisions. And having to sort of live in the moment a little bit more and parent in the moment and give up some of the control that I like to have has been a big part of it too. 

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah and things have been changing so much throughout this. So I think, you know, that was– that's been a saving grace sort of mantra for me. That idea of things work until they don't. And we're so used to making decisions that have more permanence or maybe feel like they have more permanence, and so, you know, this feeling within the pandemic of like none of us know what's coming in a week or in a month, or how long this is going to go on or you know what sort of decisions or pivots we might have to continue making.

So that was the best way I could kind of make peace with, like, well, I'm making the decision based on the information I have right now in front of me. In three days, that could look quite different. And so, you know, this works until it doesn't, which you know, that's something that we haven't even talked about yet. This whole idea of decision fatigue, you know that's been a big psychological science concept. We've come back to it again and again in our conversations with pandemic parents, because people are exhausted by it and it's just this relentless need to make decision after decision to keep ourselves safe, to keep our families safe, that don't have clear answers. And that is just pretty taxing on all of our, you know, mental health and stress levels. 

Dr. Lindsay Malloy: And even those simple decisions, because of the decision fatigue of so many decisions. And a lot of us have had our kids home for months and months when they would normally be in school, and so there's decisions like “okay, what are we going to do today again?” And “what am I going to feed them again?” Or rather, like “what am I going to put in front of them and then just get rid of a few hours later when they don't eat it?” Or whatever.

It's just like one thing after another and because there are so few options for many of us it's like, “what are we going to do this weekend?” “Well, let's pick which trail we're going to hike, because that's pretty much all we have to do.” So I think you know, even the little decisions start to feel big and start to feel like they're too much when you're having that decision fatigue. So okay, well, so that's as parents– but how do you think as a human being? How do you feel– like if we're talking about growth, that you've grown during this pandemic?

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: It is interesting to think about, you know? All the things as we were talking about before that, you know, we've lost or haven't gone the way we wanted to, but I do think there are a lot of things we're learning about ourselves in this. I definitely feel that about, you know me. Like when I stop for a second and think about the last year, you know, I'm just sort of speechless at, like, what we've all been able to manage and get through and figure out and adapt, you know?I just think we're such an amazingly resilient species. And I know that that's a term that gets thrown around a lot, but it really– this year is an example of that. 

Now there are lots of ways people are truly suffering still and will be for a long time, but we've also just found these ways to figure it out as best we can. I think especially when it comes to trying to manage our kids. So for me, I think the ability to adapt is pretty amazing and to think about, you know, what I've been able to do, what my family's been able to overcome, we've had a lot of loss the last year like everybody else and so how we've navigated that has been kind of amazing. And I think for our kids to get to see our resilience as parents and how we work through these things, I mean, that's an important lesson, you know? Resilient kids– were not just born that way. We have to model it for them. We have to show, here's how mommy gets through something really difficult.

They're getting to see that on a daily basis how we're navigating some of these really challenging things. So I've been grateful for you know– my kids to get to see, well, mom and dad do get stressed out and things don't go the way we want or we have to change our decision because, you know, this other factor came into play so, so that's something to just sort of feel like, I've been able to figure it out and it hasn't been pretty and it has been relentless as you like to say a lot. And I've made a lot of mistakes and dropped a lot of balls this year, but we're still standing, you know? We're still here and that has felt pretty amazing. 

Dr. Lindsay Malloy: Whenever I would get stressed about something, I would have my sort of go-to event, that for a long time it was okay– in like my internal dialogue, right? “Okay you climbed up Mount Kilimanjaro like you can do this you know stupid work task” or whatever it is, you can testify in this case or whatever I'm stressed about like “you climbed, Mount Kilimanjaro” and now– and then it was like “you had an almost ten pound baby like you can do this” and so now I just think this is going to be the thing like eventually hopefully that we can look back on and say “okay, remember that time you thought the kids were going to be home for two weeks and you were stressed about how you were going to get through it, and then that turned into six months and you know, somehow, someway–.”

And I, you know, I read the Glennon Doyle book, Untamed this past summer. Well, actually I listened to it on an audiobook because that's the only way that I can read books these days. But same thing, and you know the line that she says over and over again, right? Like we can do hard things and I whisper that to my daughter a lot, like when I'm dropping her off at daycare these days, because she's not very happy about it and there's a lot of tears, and so I'm always saying to her, like, “okay, we can do hard things, we can do hard things” and it doesn't mean that it's fun and it doesn't mean that, you know, it's going well like you said, but you know, we can do them and we have been. 

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah, and I think one of the really interesting things is– you talk about, you know, how we've evolved and grown in the coming months, you know? I've been thinking a lot about how it's starting to be spring, you know? We're starting to change seasons and just what is growth going to look like in the months ahead, as we hopefully continue to slowly move out of this pandightemic, right? You know, people talk about sort of returning to let–, you know, how normal or what that's going to look like. And I think as the human species we've been spending the year trying to stay away from each other, and that's kind of counter to the way we're made. So I think it's going to be really interesting to figure out how we're going to slowly find our way back to each other.

And I just think it's neat to be thinking about that in spring because, spring is full of things that happen naturally, like that, right? I've just been thinking a lot about how we're starting to see flower buds. Kind of poking up through the ground or animals that have been hibernating, you know that they peek out to scope things out. Like is it time to come out? Is it safe? And that's kind of what we're going to need to do to condition ourselves back to being together. And that's going to be pretty amazing growth, but it's gonna be hard, right? We've conditioned ourselves to stay away and that it is unsafe to be with people. So how we're gonna have to evolve and grow and find our way back to each other? It's gonna be really important. 

Dr. Lindsay Malloy: And how we're going to show our kids – who have been, you know, getting all of these warnings and wearing their masks and you know stay, you know stay back from other kids at the park and all this kind of stuff – how we're going to get them back to hopefully, eventually, you know, allowing for that kind of thing? So that's going to be interesting. I mean, for my 3 year old, I don't think she probably remembers a time at this point that was before, you know, in the “before times.” So I think it's going to be very interesting for kids of all different ages, like to to see, and I think that's a topic that you know we're really hopeful to be able to cover in an upcoming podcast with, you know, with people with relevant expertise, so maybe we should talk about, like, what's next for pandemic parenting? 

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah, so I think we're really excited to grow as an organization. If you would have asked Lindsay and I, you know, eight months ago when we started this like, would we still be here doing this? And what will it look like? I don't think we ever would have predicted that it would be where we are now. Which is, you know, an entire 501(c)3 nonprofit organization with this community of thousands and thousands of parents all over the world, who have found their way to us and into this community for these resources, for really credible and accessible information. So we're so grateful to be continuing to do the work, and we will continue to do it as long as it's helpful to people. 

So, you know, this podcast, for example, evolved out of the webinars we've been doing. We’ve done fifteen, you know, full live webinars that you can find on our website. Again, everything is always free and accessible to anyone and everyone. You can find those webinars along with about one hundred of these snack clips, so one to two minute clips of the highlights from each of these webinars and some of the best tips and tricks and resources that our experts have shared with us. So we know when you're sitting and you have five minutes scrolling your phone and you just want a quick bit of advice or you're googling, you know, “what is quantity versus quality screen time for my kid?” I mean, there's a two minute video we have for you there from some of the, you know, world experts on these issues.

So you know, we're going to be revisiting a lot of these conversations that we've already had, bringing back some of those popular guests that folks have asked for more from and bringing on a lot of other new people for future episodes of this podcast will continue to make things, you know, as digestible and accessible and quick and easy and credible. Continue to provide as many resources as we can. We're going to continue to ask you what topics you want to hear about, because we want to try to stay on top of, you know, what are again the things on the hearts and minds of parents right now. 

Dr. Lindsay Malloy: Right. We have so many questions that have come in at the during the webinars that we weren't able to get to, so we'd like to try to, you know, like Amanda said, bring people back and ask them those questions and just be able to hopefully get to as many of those as we can, but you can also submit your questions too, so we definitely want to hear from you and see what you'd like us to cover. 
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: So as we sort of wrap up, I guess what's one piece of advice or encouragement you want to leave with listeners today, Lindsay? 

Dr. Lindsay Malloy: Yeah. I was thinking about this and I cannot remember where I read this– and maybe you'll remember? But there was some sort of meme or something going around years ago– and I'm just kicking myself that I can't remember, but it was something like, you know, when your child looks into the audience at the school concert, like they aren't looking for the perfect mom, they're looking for their mom.

I just had, you know, before the pandemic I had the very first kind of school concert experience with my older child and we had that moment, you know where he's scanning the whole big crowded gym and I'm, you know, trying to get his attention and every other parent in the room is doing that, and every kid up on the stage is doing that. They're all looking to, like, lock eyes with their parents. But again, they're not looking for like they don't want like the perfect mom necessarily. They're looking for their mom or their dad or their grandma or whoever it is. And so it helps me to just keep that in mind, like, that we have this special relationship and you know we're doing our best and so are our kids right now. 

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: And they're safe and loved, that's right, yes. So I think that a lot of times as parents, you know we, we worry about so much and we worry about what our kids are going to look back on and remember about all of these different phases or about, you know, aspects of their childhood and I just– I think that people will be pretty surprised about what their kids – no matter what ages they are – remember about this year, like, this year that we stayed home, you know, and what we worry about and stress about as parents impacting them is going to be very different, I think, than what they will look back and remember about it, you know?

In my case, for example, my husband travels usually for his job and he's gone most weeks, you know, three, four, or five days a week. My kids have had him home for this year, you know, they've never had this much time uninterrupted with him, you know? Having lunch with them in the middle of the day, playing board games in the middle of the afternoon. I think the things that we stress and worry about– people will be surprised about what their kids remember. And we've had several experts reminding us that too. 

I think about when Robin Fivush was here with us, you know, talking about this for the holidays and how we stress so much about trying to create these perfect holidays for our kids. And she reminded us, you know, “what do you remember about your childhood holidays?” It wasn't that the– you know, dinner was burned or the pie came out perfectly or the perfect present was under the tree. It was the time that you spent with family, you know, those really warm memories of spending time together. And so I just, I want parents to have grace for themselves that none of us know what we're doing. There's no playbook for this, and I think that you're going to be surprised about what your kids remember about this time, as opposed to all of the things that you've been worried and stressed about. 

[MUSIC INTERLUDE]

Dr. Lindsay Malloy: Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Pandemic Parenting Podcast. Make sure to hit, follow or subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or whichever platform you're listening on to be notified of future episodes. We'd also love to connect with you on social media. Look for our blue and yellow logo when you search Pandemic Parenting on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, or YouTube and you'll find us or follow the links in the show notes.

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Let us know what you think of this episode by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Your five-star review helps us move up the charts to reach even more parents and caregivers. If you have a specific question or topic you'd like us to address in a future episode, let us know you can email info@pandemic-parent.org and mention “podcasts” in the subject line. 

Dr. Lindsay Malloy: And this podcast isn't all we do by the way. Pandemic Parenting is a 501(c)3 nonprofit providing free science-based resources for parents and all who care for children while navigating the COVID-19 pandemic. To learn more about our organization and access our extensive library of webinars, videos, blogs, and more, visit www.pandemic-parent.org. 

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Lastly, this show wouldn't be possible without supporters like you. Lindsay and I donate our time to this podcast, but we do have an incredible team working behind the scenes to make this all happen. If you'd like to support the show beyond leaving your five-star review, visit www.pandemic-parent.org/support and donate today.

Dr. Lindsay Malloy: Thanks for listening, and we hope you can join us next time. 

[MUSIC ENDS]

Pandemic Parenting
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