Supporting LGBTQ+ Parents & Youth

podcast

Jul 20

with Dr. David Langer & Dr. Marissa Peifer

The pandemic lockdown brought unique challenges for LGBTQ+ parents and youth. Many LGBTQ+ youth who primarily found support and community outside of the home faced increased isolation. For many parents in same-sex relationships, virtual work and school meant navigating increased visibility into their home lives.

Dr. David Langer and Dr. Marissa Peifer join us to share their expertise as psychologists working with LGBTQ+ youth and their own experiences as LGBTQ+ parents during the pandemic. From how to talk with your child about gender and sexuality to advice for advocating for yourself as an LGBTQ+ parent, our guest experts remind us of the power of community, support, and curiosity.

Included in this episode about LGBTQ+ parents and youth:

What aspects of pandemic parenting have made it especially hard for LGBTQ+ parents?
What silver linings have there been for LGBTQ+ families during the pandemic?
What aspects of the COVID-19 pandemic have made LGBTQ+ youth especially vulnerable?
What sorts of things do parents of LGBTQ+ youth need to keep an eye out for in order to ensure that their child is supported and not falling through the cracks right now?
How can parents best approach conversations with their children about gender and sexuality?

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Additional Resources for LGBTQ+ Families

Additional Resources & Organizations Supporting LGBTQIA+ Individuals and Families

Resources for Mental Health Providers & Others Who Support LGBTQIA+ Youth & Their Families

Identifying the Intersection of Trauma and Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity (NCTSN)
- Part I: Key Considerations
- Part II: The Screener
Safe Places, Safe Spaces: Creating Welcoming and Inclusive Environments for Traumatized LGBTQ Youth (NCTSN)
- Video
- Resource Guide

Bite-Sized Excerpts from This Episode

How to Talk to Your Child About Gender and Sexuality

How to Be a Supportive Parent to Your LGBTQ+ Child

Advocating for Yourself as a LGBTQ+ Parent

The Impact of Pandemic Isolation on LGBTQ+ Youth

How LGBTQ+ Parenthood Empowers You to Create Your Own Roles

Parents, We Get Do-Overs

Meet Our Guest Experts

David A. Langer, Ph.D., ABPP

David A. Langer, Ph.D., ABPP, is an Assistant Professor in the Department of Psychology at Suffolk University, where he serves as the Director of Clinical Training for the clinical doctoral program and the Director of the C.H.O.I.C.E.S. Lab. Dr. Langer’s research explores the efficacy and effectiveness of psychosocial treatments for youth psychopathology and the processes through which psychosocial treatments work. He is currently working on developing novel approaches to personalize psychosocial treatments for youth by supporting active collaboration between clinicians and families throughout the treatment planning process (i.e., shared decision-making) and has recently completed a 5-year project funded by the National Institute of Mental Health to study how families make decisions about mental health treatment. Dr. Langer also maintains a small private practice focused on youth and families.

Dr. Langer graduated from Washington University in St. Louis with a B.A. in Psychology and Philosophy. He received his Ph.D. in clinical psychology from the University of California, Los Angeles. He completed his pre-doctoral internship in child psychology at the UCLA Semel Institute and Resnick Neuropsychiatric Hospital, and his post-doctoral fellowship at Harvard University. In his spare time, Dr. Langer enjoys listening to and making music, listening to lots of podcasts, running, reading, and above all, spending time with his family.

Marissa Peifer, Psy.D.

Dr. Marissa Peifer is a clinical psychologist currently in private practice in Boston, Massachusetts. She completed her postdoctoral training at the Trauma Center with a focus on providing LGBTQ+ informed services. Dr. Peifer’s past research investigated the process of family adjustment when a child comes out as trangender or gender non-binary. Supporting families through this process has been an ongoing facet of her clinical practice. Marissa's professional work intersected with a personal love for the outdoors in 2009 when she was part of the team to establish Camp Aranu'tiq, the first-ever summer camp for transgender and gender non-binary youth. Dr. Peifer has served as an assistant camp director for many years there and currently serves as board member. She lives in South Shore Massachusetts with her wife and two children.

Full Audio Transcript

[THEME MUSIC UNDER INTRO]

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Can you say... “This is Dr. Amanda Zelechoski.”

Child 1: Why do we have to?

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Just try it!

Child 1: I can't.

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Deep breath

Child 2: [Laughter] This is Dr. Amanda Zelechoski.

Child 3: [Yelling] Lindsay Malloy! Ah!

Dr. Lindsay Malloy: Wait, say Doctor Lindsay Malloy.

Child 3: [Yelling] Dr. Lindsay Malloy!

Dr. Lindsay Malloy: [Laughing] No, come back!

Child 4: This is Dr. Lindsay Malloy.

Child 2: Welcome to the [unintelligible] Parenting Podcast (laugher).

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: [Laughter].

Dr. Lindsay Malloy: One more time.

Child 4: And then after that can I have a candy?

Dr. Lindsay Malloy: [Laughing] No.

Child 4: Please, Mommy!

Dr. Lindsay Malloy: Okay, ready?

Child 4: The Pandemic Parenting Podcast!

Dr. Lindsay Malloy: Excellent!

[MUSIC INTERLUDE]

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: While the pandemic lockdown brought challenges for us all, LGBTQ+ parents and youth faced particular challenges. Many LGBTQ+ youth who primarily found support and community outside of the home faced increased isolation from peers and mentors. For many parents in same-sex relationships, virtual work and school meant navigating increased visibility into their home lives. I had the opportunity to talk with long-time friends and colleagues, Dr. David Langer and Dr. Marissa Pifer, about these challenges.

And I'm so grateful they were willing to share not only their expertise as psychologists working with LGBTQ+ youth but also their own experiences as LGBTQ+ parents navigating the pandemic. In this episode, we delve into a range of topics, such as learning how to support your LGBTQ+ child, having conversations with your child about gender and sexuality, and advocating for yourself as an LGBTQ+ parent.

Whether you're an LGBTQ+ parent, the parent of an LGBTQ+ child, or simply someone who wants to learn how to be a better ally to the LGBTQ+ community, Dr. Langer and Dr. Pifer remind all of us of the power of community support and curiosity. Let us know your thoughts or questions you have on this topic, by tweeting us @PandemicParent or by sending a message through our website. Let's get into the conversation!

[MUSIC ENDS]

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: So welcome to today's podcast! Today we're going to be focusing a lot on LGBTQ+ families. And I'm so thrilled to be welcoming two friends and colleagues, Dr. Marisa Pifer and Dr. David Langer. Welcome to you both. Thanks for being here.

Dr. David Langer: Thanks for having us.

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yes, absolutely. So I wanted to start just with, yeah, how both of you are doing so, and what the last year and a half of pandemic parenting has looked like for you in your household? So Marissa, let's start with you. How are you, really?

Dr. Marissa Peifer: It's so nice to even have a moment to even reflect on that question because it feels like this year and a half has been, so just saturated with everything. So really, I'm doing as well as I could imagine being– and I'm fortunate to have flexible work, and I'm doing as well as we can be. I have– we have a six-year-old and an almost-four-year-old, and so it's been a wild ride in that way. But all things considered, we are lucky to be doing as well as we are.

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah, great, thanks for being here. And David, how are you?

Dr. David Langer: Yeah, I’ll go with what Marissa was saying, and it's been a year of challenges and rewards. And my husband and I are fortunate enough to have been able to hold on to our jobs and work remotely. We have twin six-year-olds, and it's also been like trying to balance remote learning– watching them and supervising them at the same time as working. It has certainly been a balance, but I think we're also very lucky to have had work and be in a place where they could stay safe and we could continue our work and parenting.

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah. Yeah, balancing so many different things, I think, is a theme for all of us this year with lots of these different layers and contexts. So one of the reasons I wanted both of you here for this conversation is not only because you both are a part of the LGBTQ+ community, but also because you're both clinical psychologists and, you know– so you're navigating these spaces from very different lenses, from simultaneous lenses. It's both your lived experience but also aspects of your work. So I want to just kind of think about together, you know, as we've been talking about parenting during a pandemic, it's been tough in most households anyway, right? Just it's just been tough, and that is because of a lot of the things that you both mentioned or maybe other layers of privilege or lack of resources that families don't have. So it's been pretty tough as it is, especially for those with young children.

As you know, the ages, both of you talked about having the ages of my kids. We've seen in a number of different research studies now that parents of younger kids have been impacted more adversely than parents with older kids. So in thinking about how tough it's been, I'm just curious to hear your thoughts on whether there have been aspects of pandemic parenting that have made it especially hard for LGBTQ+ families, you know? Whether that's been for you personally or others you're connected to or work with, like just what have you seen in the various communities and kind of spheres you inhabit. So David, let's start with you.

Dr. David Langer: You know, I've been thinking about this and trying to disentangle what have been the challenges of pandemic parenting and what may be unique to being a same-sex male couple raising children. And I think a lot of what might be more standard, it challenges, or more stereotypical challenges we haven't had to face, and we've been lucky in that we live in a pretty liberal area in a suburb north of Boston and our community and our school district has been very welcoming.

So things like our kids have been learning a lot from home and cameras, so there are cameras in homes, and for us, our kids were already open with their classmates in their schools about having two dads. So there was no trying to balance what's in the background or what's going to be seen. And that– taking away that privacy that is typically there between work and school and home wasn't as much of a challenge, but then I think you know one of the both benefits of being in a same-sex couple is there wasn't that automatic assumption of well, here are the gender roles that we're being told by society that we play.

So we are navigating those not because of a predetermined or kind of assumed this is what we're going to be doing as parents and figuring that out on our own and what fits for us and what works for us. And I think that's been wonderful, but at the same time, I feel that being torn between really valuing my work and really valuing my family and then feeling like I'm not really getting either to the level of quality that I want and when they're away at school. I'm working, and it's like well, they're doing their thing, and I'm doing my thing, but when they're a room away and then I'm like in a different room, and I feel like I'm like they're right there, and I should be doing more, but I'm not. It has just made the choices so much clearer because one is not out of mind when you're doing the other because they're all taking place in the same building.

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah, and so there goes our guilt, right? Like you said, of just all the shoulds, “I should be doing this, I should be doing that” is a really interesting perspective. Thank you. Marissa, what do you think?

Dr. Marissa Peifer: I echo so much of what David shared, you know? I thought about that too. In terms of there's a real gift and not having these gender stereotypes, these sort of frameworks you just can slip into that. We've had– my wife, we've had to consider, you know, even as far back as who's gonna– who's going to propose to who? Are we both going to wear dresses, are we–? I mean, everything had to be this co-creation and really done through a lot of dialogue and sorting out what was best for us as a system.

That muscle was already really well built, and so we've sort of brought that to this pandemic of looking at the system, and what's going to work out best, not, you know what's the sort of assumption that we're going to slip into, but really sort of figuring that out. I think as you're sharing in terms of everything being under one roof. David, you know the work I do. Some, you know, for some folks I work with clinically, they don't know much about my life, and so here was my life, right? You have a little kid who's crying and saying, “mommy, I need you.” And everyone assumes that's me and it's like that's not me. So it's you know the visibility and having to navigate those sorts of moments and, you know? I think is an added– there for LGBTQ+ folks that may not be on everybody else's plate.

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah. So two things I'm thinking about there. So one is, as you both noted like the privacy got really tricky, you know? Whether it was right– cameras inside our homes, you know, for our kids and what that meant as they were logging into school and people were seeing who lives in their home and what those dynamics are. But also the reverse. Of that like you just mentioned, Marissa, you know, there's you know in our workplaces, kind of seeing into my home me seeing into theirs and what that means, especially for LGBTQ+ families that you know, maybe aren't as public with who lives in their home and what the dynamics are between everybody. And so that is very tricky for each member of the family, I think, to navigate in their own way.

The other thing you said I really liked too is this idea of intentionality – that you both talked about – because you aren't constrained by some of the societal assumptions about gender roles in the home. You've got to be very intentional about how you approached this pandemic, whereas maybe in other homes it is– it's just the default assumption, you know? I was just even thinking that as you both described it. Like you know, school daycare, they always call me first. They always do. And I am in a heterosexual marriage, right? The default is that I am always the one they reach out to. And so then there's this assumption that I have to deal with it and that's just been an interesting dialogue, you know, with my husband who says what, “why don't they ever call me, like I'm home too and I can help you, you shouldn't always have to assume that you have to be the one to you know swoop in and fix whatever the situation is.”

So it's really interesting to hear you both say you know, like you said, it met Marissa. This is a muscle we already had to flex and practice and strengthen. And we brought that maybe as a strength to navigating the pandemic too so that even sounded like maybe a benefit or a silver lining that this is something we were already pretty good at. What are some of the things? Maybe some other benefits or Silver Linings you've seen come up for either you and your homes? Or just you know communities or folks you've worked with?

Dr. Marissa Peifer: It's probably a strange way to put it, but one of the things I've seen certainly in my clinical work is, you know, for folks coming into the pandemic who have really complicated relationships with their family of origin, often around their identity, this has been a really interesting time of boundaries, right? They could not be in physical connection anyway with people that often they had very complicated relationships with, and really for a lot of folks seeing the impact of that and feeling it. It's like, wow, I have a sort of different sense of space and equilibrium that I didn't quite even know was possible. So it's been an interesting practice for folks to see what those boundaries have been like and then to sort of discuss from there. What are the pieces that you really keep practicing? How do you do it differently as the pandemic shifts over time, so it's been a piece of practice, as certainly we wouldn't have predicted unfolding in this way.

Dr. David Langer: Yeah, I see, you know, the same things as being potentially “silver linings” and rewards and challenges depending on people's circumstances, you know, for the thinking about inviting people into our homes or inviting sounds like this is something we decided would be fun. Having a choice forced to pop up on us and how much we want to open our homes and cameras and everything and where we're going to say it and how much we're going to share. I think it can open the door for some people who may have been a bit hesitant to say, “you know what we're going to be more open with people about who we are and who our family is.” I hope that from– for many people, that's been a rewarding and affirming experience and encouraging people to be more open to being who they are and share that with others. But then, on the flip side, we know that's not always the case.

And I think this is kind of that balance that we have to take hold of the differential responses. I think another is it's opened a world of connecting to community in a way that we had in before. Thank you. And at the same time, I imagine we'll talk about this some time too, youth, that kind of the isolation and all the challenges of isolation experienced in a way that we as a society, at least no one living, has experienced before to this degree. There's also been a whole bunch of connections and people figuring out how to connect online in different ways. And whether that's professionally in teletherapy and being able to work with people through computers and people who may not have been able to travel to clinics and/or have a talk with a therapist from the comfort of their own home. And for people who may be in the closet or who may not have people and a community physically around them or close enough to connect to now, it's opened up even more that you could find community in different places.

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah, and that connection piece strikes me as maybe both a pro and con, right? In the ways, you're both describing and that, we could put in some boundaries around who we wanted to see, not see, maybe who it's painful to see right now or complex as you described. I'm thinking– I mean, especially not only have we been in the midst of a pandemic, right? But we've also been in this whole, you know, a year and a half of lots of civil unrest, systemic racism, a lot of other pieces to this. We've also had a pretty – in the US – contentious election. So you know, I'm thinking about how many parents we talked with, who were actually quite relieved that they didn't have to go to the Thanksgiving family gathering, you know? Right around election time. And so, yeah, I think there are benefits to that?

I wonder too about the flip side, though in the creative ways you were talking, David, about connection, especially using technology. Have there been some, maybe, added risks or challenges with that around who people are connecting with online? I mean, just think about the isolation piece and who we are reaching out to, which maybe tends to be people similar to us. Or, you know, groups where we can find support, which is great. But then what has that sort of done for the dialogue? We're maybe used to having with people who don't see things the same way.

Dr. David Langer: So I think there are not those safety checks that there may be in in-person schooling and of course what kind of safety checks are there depends a lot on the district and what the district is looking for and what's kind of normalized in whatever part of the country and whatever school district and over leadership is, but you know, there is the opportunity to connect with more established, affirming, helpful resources and communities. And there's also a lot online, as we all know that is not all that helpful and could be harmful. And there's also a lot of people in groups looking for, you know, vulnerable at-risk youth to bring in two, well, I would consider dangerous and harmful ideologies, right?

By using other means, and other methods to try to get youth and everyone into more divisive places. So I think that's a risk and not just a risk, but something we know happens. And I think without an in-person connection, it may be harder to catch that even for youth who find and parents and people who find good community online, there's more effort that needs– that we need to take this step to do that. And youth who struggle, I think if they are taking the steps, they may reach out to the Trevor Project and speak with someone on the helpline and learn about more resources and connect with affirming support, but a youth who may not think to do that or not want to take that step if they're all at home. There may not be people at school or other adults to say, like “I think this person is really struggling and could use some help.”

Dr. Marissa Peifer: Yeah. I think more people may slip through the cracks, yeah. I think a lot about age and how complicated, you know, especially, I think about young transgender and non-binary youth, right? And there's a real lack of support for them in general. And then you look at what they had available too in terms of online resources, and you know, talking to a mother a couple of weeks ago and she said look, I really pushed for my younger kid to have access to a group that was a little bit older than what the criteria was, right, and this kid needed the support and the connection and just to combat some of that isolation so badly and yet was sort of exposed to, you know, sort of concepts, things that could developmentally, I wouldn't have otherwise been thinking about. Until there is this, you know, sort of double-edged nests, I think all the pieces that we're talking about today just required this real consideration of context. It's like what? Where is that balance between where the benefit is and where the potential risk is?

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah, and we know that especially, you know, now kind of shifting our focus in thinking about kids. And parents trying to help kids that maybe you know, already identified as part of the LGBTQ+ community, or questioning, or just trying to learn more, you know, figure it out? So we already know that kids falling under any of those descriptions are at higher risk for a lot of things, you know? Like David was talking about. Maybe exposure to groups of people trying to victimize them, bullying, depression, suicide, and lots of mental health challenges. So as we think about already, the higher level of risk, you know, are there aspects that you've observed from our time, you know, throughout the COVID-19 pandemic that have made these youth especially vulnerable?

Dr. Marissa Peifer: Yeah, it really is the group I worry the most about in terms of what they already had access to, you know? Even thinking about the times where you need to access a higher level of care and how tricky that is in the best of circumstances, and then you add in the pandemic, and it's been complicated to access care from a COVID perspective, in terms of just availability and then you think about what's what's available in terms of really, you know, informed care for transgender non-binary kids and that's the group that I've been really concerned about.

Dr. David Langer: Yeah, I think the isolation is really key and the removal of or less access to more of the routines and standard interactions with people through school. And for some youth, this may be a benefit. In fact, if there was bullying and stress, but there are certainly some youth who this is the best of all worlds. They get to get the education and not have to deal with a toxic environment at school.

But for many years, it is even more isolation and less opportunity to engage in fun activities in the types of ways that we would encourage youth, especially depressed youth, to find things with other people that are fun to do. Some things that are fun to do alone and with other people. And that's one of the things that works best to help people lift their mood doing fun things. And that's been really, really hard over the past year. And then I think it's brought to the forefront some of the challenges, especially like for trans youth, maybe in a part of their development where they don't want as much focus of people looking at them. And then they have a camera directly in their face, often with their legal name written right underneath the camera. But this is how they need to– that there's much more of a focus on challenges like this. And I think the other challenges I'd see for youth and LGBTQ+ youth specifically are the context.

And I think that is the family context. That for youth with supportive parents, more supportive families. That being at home, they may still get that support. Still, we know that many LGBTQ+ youth in our country are not getting affirmation and support from their families of origin and taking away the connections from school and other social connections. There's even less support there. And as Morrison noted, and as you noted, it's not just bad and unfortunate, it's being there and a huge risk, a risk to life, lives of these youth in not having that support. And then our country. It's been a stressful time in an especially stressful time for LGBTQ+ youth who were caught in the pandemic and also caught in culture wars that are often trying to use their identities and diminish their identities and disrespect their identities in order to gain political standing. And youth are aware of that, just like we're all aware about, and that has a big impact. It's simple. We saw LGBTQ+ youth mental health go up after same-sex marriage. Those made the law of the land, and we see mental health go down when there are national policies, transphobic policies, and other national policies that don't respect who they are as people.

[MUSIC INTERLUDE - END SPONSOR BREAK]

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: At Pandemic Parenting, we're committed to sharing our expertise and research in ways that are immediately accessible and useful to families. As part of our efforts to sustain and expand this work, Lindsay and I are also available for virtual speaking engagements at your business organization, PTO, and more. We want to help you and those who you work with and grow with and raise your children with have the chance to do so in an environment that fosters and supports your mental health. Some of the topics we enjoy speaking on include parenting during the pandemic, the impact of trauma on children and families, child development, the mental health impact of COVID-19 on employees, and more. If you or your organization are interested in potentially collaborating. Please reach out to us for availability and pricing through the request to speaker form on our website at www.pandemicparent.org.

[MUSIC ENDS - END SPONSOR BREAK]

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah. I've been thinking a lot about– as we think about, you know, maybe the kids were most worried about– through this as you kind of both were bringing up examples, you know? For me too, it's been thinking a lot about things like child maltreatment rates, emotional abuse, neglect, those kinds of things as kids have been locked in homes, and as you both are pointing out, you know, maybe kids who aren't seen in their homes, right? In the ways that they are struggling and fighting to be seen. And so when we have taken them away in lots of ways from other people who fill their buckets, other people who see them at school, whether it's peers or teachers or just who do really see them and understand them. And they may not be getting that at home, you know?

I think some of our conversations so far have been operating from the assumption of supportive parents, you know, parents who really want to make sure that their kids are getting what they need throughout this. But that isn't the story for a lot of the youth that you know we're talking about. And so, as they have struggled to find those connections and be seen in the ways that they desperately need to be and want to be, you know, that's a challenge. So if we just sort of think about, you know, parents who recognize this risk in their kids or see that their kids are struggling, you know? You both are amazing clinicians, and so I want to tap into your expertise there to, you know, what sorts of things can parents of LGBTQ+ youth do, you know, what sort of things, I guess, should they keep on their radar? What should they keep an eye out for to make sure that their child is supported and not falling through the cracks? As you mentioned, David, you know, which we're seeing a lot of kids fall through the cracks right now, so yeah, what can parents do to support these kids?

Dr. Marissa Peifer: You know one of the things that you mentioned, David, is really even that camera piece, right? What does it mean for kids to be seen? And for some kids, especially transgender, non-binary kids, this is an opportunity to sort of try some things on just get a sort of more titrated response from their environment? For other kids like David had mentioned, just to be seen is such a painful experience and one of the first things that comes to mind, Amanda, when you ask us about curiosity, you know, really as parents, it's been a very stressful time, and our curiosity can really sort of fly out the window. And so how do we remind ourselves to come back and say, okay, step one to name what’s going on.

And to be curious about it. And the assumption can be, you know, this kid just isn't motivated, or whatever it is. To wait just– can we be openly curious about what's going on? And especially for these youth, really widening that range, you know? If parents can tolerate it, right? To say you don't even have to choose a place to be on this continuum, right? To, you know, to really be as curious about how they feel. Give them as much space as they can and really be, you know, noticing changes. Are they withdrawing, you know, from the things that they used to love to do? Are they irritable? These sorts of things that we're noticing a shift in– At the first meeting, it was some naming of it, and then really, I think diving in with some curiosity to just try our best to understand what's going on.

Dr. David Langer: I think that's super important, and I think it does put more of a burden on parents, especially when kids aren't in school, physically or interacting with as many other people. Because it is that very natural teen response like “I don't want to talk about it.” Sometimes it’s a little bit easier to fly, you know, like well, they're also, you know– they meet with their guidance counselor weekly to check-in at school and things like that. But if there is not as much interaction, then it puts parents in a position of being like, “I understand you don't want to talk about it, but I also need to make sure you're doing okay,” you know? You talk about everything, but we need to make sure you're safe.

I realized, in thinking back to what I was just saying a few minutes ago, sometimes it's very tempting, I could fall into that trap of thinking about parents, of the supportive parents and the not supportive parents when we know it's not like either you are dressed in full rainbow garb like, well even waving flags, or you're completely against LGBTQ+. I think the portion of parents who are like super, super against LGBTQ+ youth, one probably aren't listening to this podcast, and they fear like a pretty small portion who like are just like you know, what if my kids say I don't care about them. If my kid is trans and I think that's great, that is such a small portion, but I think there's a lot of parents in a very understandable way who love their kid, want the best for their kid, but don't have a lot of experience with LGBTQ+ populations with people who've gone through this. And don't know what this will mean for their child, even for very supportive parents. I think the vast majority of parents truly love their children and want the best for them.

Some confusion about how to be supportive and how to be supportive of their child, even if they're not really sure how they feel about an LGBTQ+ identity and they aren't really ready to support an LGBTQ+ identity. And I think there's probably a good chunk of parents who fall into that, I will say.

Even this is disclosure, and I don't usually make that– I'm very comfortable making– like when I came out to my mother – my mother went to college for music – all of her male friends from college and from growing up in New York City– like she had more gay male friends and she had stayed now friends– so very immersed in like the gay scene in New York. When I came out to her, her first response was like, but what is this going to mean about your life? And what is– like are you going to be able to, like, have a family? It wasn't anything anti, yeah, it was just you know as a parent you have you imagine what your child’s life and who your child is and what it's going to be like and when that's shifted that takes adjustment. It's not– it doesn't mean anything bad about being a parent, and what I'd say for that– for me, I would say my mom came around very quickly, but it took processing, right?

Think about how you could support your child and be there for them and let them know that you were there for them and that you're going to learn. Like you may not understand at all now, but you want to learn so you could talk about it together and figure out how to support them best. And that doesn't mean that you need to automatically, you know, everything or do everything, but then reaching out to places like PFLAG and other resources. And maybe we could share something.

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. David Langer: We post on that website after for parents we were like I think this is what's going on, or my child told me this is what's going on, but I don't really know about it. My child doesn't really want to talk about it, and I need to learn. I'd like to learn more or speak with other parents who are in that similar position of figuring out coming to terms.

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah, I think that is. It's just such an important point. I really appreciate you bringing that up. Like how many parents don't even know, like you said, they're not in this extreme category, one or the other, like I don't even know that I should be in this conversation, because I didn't even know my child was struggling in this way to kind of figure this out so, right? Like we don't know what we don't know, and this willingness to sort of learn. So I think that– yeah, I want to just ask you both that as a follow up, and I don't mean to put you on the spot with this, so if you're not comfortable answering, that's totally fine. But I'm curious about, you know what sort of thing should parents look out for that, maybe I should be bringing this up with my child or asking about, you know, any number of struggles they might be facing, but especially questioning identity, sexual orientation, you know, whatever it might be.

Are there sort of better ways? I know there's not always a perfect way or a right, or I know there are wrong ways for sure, but you know, what are some ways or tips you might have for how parents can sensitively and compassionately bring this up with their child? Because, as you noted, David, you know, you often, especially when we're talking about some of these adolescent ages, you're gonna get the “I'm fine I don't want to talk about it, everything's fine” no matter what, right? Really often, no matter what you're asking your kids about, but so yeah– what are your thoughts around how parents can be curious like you mentioned Marissa, but maybe in better ways?

Dr. Marissa Peifer: The first thing that comes to my mind is starting early and often, you know, for our kids, you know, a different dynamic, but we didn't want there to be a one-day conversation to say, “look, here's how you came to be.” Well, we need to sit you down. It's just always been a part of the conversation. And same with gender identity for our kids that there are so many great books out there now, and I'm happy to share some with you. As David mentioned, it really– it doesn't need to be a big conversation or sort of a newsflash moment.

It's like this is just part of our sort of language and culture as a family. It’s a look at how many different ways boys can dress. To look at how many different ways girls can have their hair.

So I think optimal scenario. If people have the resources and if it sort of works internally for them is to really start early, and so that it's just introduced. It's like there's just a range, and that's just known down the road. You know, I think it is sort of introducing those ideas as gently as we can that there are so many different ways to be, and because kids are especially in certain developmental ages. They're so binary, right? It's like, but I'm either this or that.

And how do we help our kids? What is developmentally normative, right? But sort of expand that out, which it's really hard. I come back to sort of naming and just sort of leaving room over time for different ways to be. Yeah, and there are so many opportunities for that, right?

I'm thinking about, you know, one of my kids was just looking on a store's website, right the other day And he, you know he had a gift card, and so he was kind of searching for what he wanted, and he said “what does this mean, mom?” “It says ‘boys and girls are neutral’” and I was like, “oh, let's talk about that,” right? And so it was just like you said, it doesn't have to be this big, sit down, “the talk” that we have. I love these, you know, teachable moments that come up on you now very often, very frequent basis. So just capitalizing on those and leaning into your child's curiosity rather than kind of being afraid of that or avoiding it and so many great books and representation, you know we're seeing now to just introduce into their vocabulary, integrate, you know, into their experiences makes a lot of sense.

Dr. David Langer: Yeah, yeah. I think I agree with everything each of you have said in it. And I think there is, you know, like books and there's just so much media out there now, and there is, fortunately, a lot more representation and each year it's more and more so. I think for you know, for younger kids where you have more control of– for six-year-olds, like, we could pick out books from the library, and any time we're like, “Hey, we want to read this, it will be short, you're gonna sit down and read to me” like, I’m game. Most of the time for older kids and teens, since it may be more them watching shows when it's seeing celebrities in the media who are LGBTQ+ identified too, just let know in passing comments, “oh, did you see like–?” or “oh that's great!” or “did you see so and so and so and so got married” or “so and so announced that they've transitioned or they're transitioning, like how brave!” Even like a passing comment for a child or a teen who is thinking about that or is having some internal processing and figuring out about identity, many will be really attuned to those comments and even a passing comment of “oh that you know that person announced that they're transgender and they're going to transition, like how brave of them to share that,” like, I think that like a passing comment could go a long way.

I think we could follow down a bit of a rabbit hole if we think too much about things like, well, what are the indicators that someone is? Because then it's hard to distinguish like this– the stereotypes we don't want to start saying, like, “Hey, you're a boy, musical theater, so you have anything you want to tell me?” And granted, I was a boy who's a musical theater, and my husband teaches musical theater like it's not like an unheard-of thing. Still, just because your involved in musical theater doesn't mean you're gay and and it would– I imagine that a lot of boys in music theater or getting that a lot from their peers like they don't need their parent being like, “so I notice you tried out for this school show, I just want you to know if you're gay? That's fine with me.” But if a child or teen is asking, it was like saying things about oh, you know, I thought, “what do you think of that guy?” Right? “I thought he was cute.” Like if your son says that like then maybe that opens a little bit of like, “oh yeah, me too.” Like, you know, it opens a little bit more of a– they're giving clues and are like testing out the conversation and questions and more opportunities to engage in conversation there.

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah, I think that we see kids testing out what we think about things a lot indirectly like you're saying, right? That they'll sometimes float to you “oh, you know I heard this about this kid at school…can you believe that dad?” and it's sort of– it's their way of really taking the pulse of how you're going to respond if it ever were to be about them. But I don't think that in our business, right? Or I'm making dinner, and you just kind of floated this comment out there or this question and I did it– I think sometimes as parents we have to pause or reflect or think about wait a minute, I wonder what– you know, get curious like Marissa was saying.

I wonder what was happening there or what they were asking about or were they, you know, trying to see how I'd react to that 'cause I don't think it's as simple as all of us are pointing out, right? –of having a big conversation where they sit down, or we sit them down and say I'm noticing these things. I do think it's much more the accumulation of all these little moments that set the stage for if and when they will feel safe to disclose to us something they're struggling with, whatever that might be.

Dr. David Langer: Can we not bring some comfort too, in that is never like, window of opportunity opens, and then it shuts, and if you missed it because you were busy cooking or you had this deadline that you like– I mean like “I'm sorry I need to work, right now” like there's just constant windows, or there could be constant windows where you could say something, or they'll bring stuff up, and I think that's really great to think of it in a way of continuous thinking, the opportunity.

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: That's right. Yeah, I think that's a message that Lindsay and I have been trying to hammer home with parents. This whole, you know, year and a half or so. We get do overs, like whether it's talking to your kids about COVID, whether it's talking to your kids about their gender, identity. Any challenges your families may befacing that you don't have to get it right and perfectly every time we get to come back and say. You know when I brought up? Such and such last night, like I don't think I did a good job asking you about that, or I might have been more confused, could we talk about that again, or could we try that again?

You know, it's also great modeling for our kids to see us come back and revisit conversations. Maybe apologize if we didn't get it right, or we weren't as sensitive, or maybe we weren't listening like you said, David. I think about how many times I've just been so busy trying to work from home, you know, and I dismiss it like, “okay can we talk about that in a few minutes?” and I didn't realize that it was a missed opportunity that my child got up the courage to come and tell me something and I just was so dismissive or distracted, but we get to come back to that and say it seems like “you had something really important to tell me earlier. I'm sorry that I was distracted, could we try again?” to take the pressure off getting it right the first time every time?

Dr. David Langer: And what's important modeling, yeah?

Dr. Marissa Peifer: That is one of the, I think, greatest comforts in the way that both of you are talking is really seeing the power of repair that it's not even as if it's, you know, we have the chance to come back to. It's like we that is such a gift to kids and, you know, working with adults I see it on the other end to how? How that repair matters, and then you sort of go back in time, which takes a lot of resources and privilege to be able to be in a place where you can do that. But gosh, if we can do that to really go back to something to repair it to own, what are we– we're not even letting ourselves off the hook? We're really giving our kids a real gift, and the more we see it that way. I think it frees us up and is such an important model for our kids, yeah?

Dr. David Langer: Just a comforting thought or the– I had, and now I wish I remembered when I was listening to– it was another podcast that was talking about trends across generations, and something like parents in the 50s or 60s spent so much less time with their kids than we had parents are spending today. Like these kids like come home, they're doing their own thing like and all that, and that always makes me feel a little bit better. Not that I want– like I'm not spending like hardly any time with my kids, but thinking about kind of the expectations and the pressure just that's exacerbated by social media and like, and everything of thinking like, “oh, we need to do like this with the kids” and every moment is quality time.

And then I see these like what I think are intended to be inspirational quotes online, or like you only have this number of weekends to make– from when the child is born to when the child goes to college. And it feels like such pressure of, like, you need to at every moment like maximize it and make it from– And like, no, it's really not, or at least is what I keep telling myself. But like we have a lot of pressure to like, make every moment count. And like sometimes kids get like to do their own thing, and you don't always need to be engaging and a positive educational growth opportunity like they could do their thing, we could do our thing, and we have the quality time together, but I think the expectations of parents these days has gone way, way up and more than what most of our kids actually need.

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: That's right. And what the research supports, you know, what you're saying, that it is so much more about the quality of time we spend with our kids than the quantity that, you know? There's a big difference between if I am giving my child my undivided attention for five quality minutes of “we're doing what you want, I am totally enraptured with what we're doing, you have me all to yourself.” That's very different than if I'm sitting next to you and we're both on our phones for three hours or scrolling some device, but not really engaging. You're always gonna want to take the quality of that enriched experience together rather than the quantity of time. So I think you're exactly right. And we put so much pressure to make every single moment count when– actually– speaking of gifts, it's also a gift for your child to feel boredom. To experience that to figure out how to fill their time in ways that they enjoy or feel meaningful to them.

And so it's okay for kids to feel bored, so I mean, think about how our parents responded to “I'm bored” versus the pressure we put on ourselves to respond to our kids in a very different way to swoop in and fill that time versus letting them navigate that for themselves. So speaking of, you know, Marissa was talking about repairs, and it just sort of makes me think about repairs on a much more sort of systemic policy level. We've learned a lot of things throughout the pandemic. So I'm curious from both of your perspectives about maybe ways the pandemic has magnified some existing inequalities or challenges that were already there for LGBTQ+ families and what might need to be some policies or changes we see moving forward, like what lessons should we take from this last year and a half and move forward?

Dr. Marissa Peifer: That’s a big question and a really important question.

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: I know.

Dr. Marissa Peifer: You know the two that jump out at me, Amanda, are really around housing and, you know, in the workforce, right? I mean, even seeking about for transgender, you know, and nonbinary folks, the shakiness of “am I actually– are my rights going to be protected?” To not have access to a job or to have my employment terminated, we have a lot of work, I think, to do in terms of helping LGBTQ+ folks navigate a workforce where there's still discrimination and shakiness in terms of protection there and housing and security, you know? It's a, I think, a significant concern, especially for transgender and nonbinary folks, really, especially for folks who are not in a safe place who really need to leave and need shelter and that there are few resources even in metropolitan areas that are really safe, trained and places that people can land. So from a housing perspective, and I think certainly from a workforce respect, but I think it has really made that clear that there's a lot of work to do on those fronts. I completely agree, and I think discrimination against people based on who they are or whom they love. Should be illegal. Nationwide, it shouldn't depend on what zip code you live in. Whether or not someone could turn you away from a job or an apartment that that shouldn't be allowed anywhere, and I think. Especially in times of financial stress and growing income inequality, and a pandemic of racism that LGBTQI. Plus, individuals who are already at greater risk in a number of these areas and then people with intersecting identities are even at greater risk. I think as much as we could do to limit and reverse that discrimination. Is it certainly needed?

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Well, it just makes me think about, with, you know, what you're both describing. I think a lot about how resilient LGBTQ+ families are, and it's because they have had to be, right? So resilience is developed, you know, we have to strengthen our resiliency; we aren't just born with it. And so families that have either LGBTQ+ parents or kids or both have had to fight harder for many things, right? I've experienced lots of discrimination and disparity, as you both just sort of pointed out. So I'm also seeing as you know, as we're talking about and thinking about the ways that families, the LGBTQ+ community have had to weather this period differently than other families, so lots of resilience and adaptability that that are there as compared to, say, you know traditional families not experiencing those things. So just kind of keeping in mind those pieces, right? Or that perspective? I guess I just want to know as kind of a final sign-off, like, what do you want to say to other LGBQ+ families, you know, what is rolling around in there for you and what sort of message do you have for other families navigating these things too?

Dr. David Langer: My main message would be one of community, and I think generations ago, one of the biggest challenges for LGBTQ+ people was finding community because you weren't born into or your family had that same identity as other identities maybe. And what I see is opportunities, and I encourage everyone – as difficult as it may be – to try to find where your community is if you haven't found it yet. And I think the hopeful words is that there are communities out there, and there is a community for you, and especially in youth, you will find people who are a community for you on LGBTQ+ parents. This plus it plus as well and whether that's online. Whether that's finding resources and connecting with groups in-person, I think the community is one of the most important pieces.

Dr. Marissa Peifer: I think support is the main piece, whether that's for your LGBTQ+ kids, whether that's for yourself as a parent of an LGBTQ+ kid who's navigating that process, or as an LGBTQ+ parent. And so, I think support is huge. And the other piece I've been thinking about a lot is really that we have to be gentle with ourselves, and it takes energy to advocate when you move through the world in a minority status of any kind, right? And to be careful with yourself about when you can take on more and when you need to sort of slow down, take care of yourself and your own family before you can sort of make another push in terms of really helping to change some of the social dynamics at play in your own community. So I think first getting support feeling a sense of, you know, visibility and you're not the only one with a certain family structure or identity is huge. And then beyond that, I really feel like parents to really just as much as they can to be gentle with themselves and realize how much effort goes in, even in visible effort in terms of navigating systems, when you're in minority status.

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Thank you. Very, very powerful and helpful guidance from you both. So I just want to thank you for joining us and for sharing aspects. Both of your professional expertise, but also each of your lived experiences. I really think that that just helps us all feel part of a community, right? And know that we are seen, and we are not the only ones struggling with this and that there's no right way to do this and so thank you both very much for joining.

[MUSIC INTERLUDE]

Dr. Lindsay Malloy: Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Pandemic Parenting Podcast. Make sure to hit, follow or subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or whichever platform you're listening on to be notified of future episodes. We'd also love to connect with you on social media. Look for our blue and yellow logo when you search Pandemic Parenting on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, or YouTube, and you'll find us or follow the links in the show notes.

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Let us know what you think of this episode by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Your five-star review helps us move up the charts to reach even more parents and caregivers. If you have a specific question or topic you'd like us to address in a future episode, let us know. You can email info@pandemic-parent.org and mention “podcasts” in the subject line.

Dr. Lindsay Malloy: And this podcast isn't all we do by the way. Pandemic Parenting is a 501(c)3 nonprofit providing free science-based resources for parents and all who care for children while navigating the COVID-19 pandemic. To learn more about our organization and access our extensive library of webinars, videos, blogs, and more, visit www.pandemic-parent.org. Lastly, this show wouldn't be possible without supporters like you.

Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Lindsay and I donate our time to this podcast, but we do have an incredible team working behind the scenes to make this all happen. If you'd like to support the show beyond leaving your five-star review, visit www.pandemic-parent.org/support and donate.

Dr. Lindsay Malloy: Thanks for listening, and we hope you can join us next time.