Mental Health for Parents with Dr. Christina Grange
Parenting, mental health, and how to handle “jalapeño moments.”
Dr. Christina Grange returns to discuss the unique challenges parents are facing in the pandemic that impact their mental health. As a researcher and a clinician, Dr. Grange shares preliminary insights from her studies of mental health in non-traditional families, as well as advice on identifying and requesting the support you need from your village or a mental health professional.
Hear more from Dr. Christina Grange in our previous webinar Pandemic Co-Parenting & Single Parenting.
In this episode about parental mental health:
What is unique about the situation that parents are in during the pandemic and why is it important to focus on their mental health?
What are the factors that are protective and maybe help buffer parents against the stress of this pandemic and what are the factors that may make it worse?
How do we know when we need to find additional help with a mental health professional?
Bite-Sized Excerpts from This Episode
Who is the most important person in a parent’s life?
What kind of support do you need as a parent?
The Power of Taking a Breath
A Message to BIPOC Parents: It’s Okay to Feel Weathered
When should I seek out a therapist?
Meet Our Guest Expert
Christina M. Grange, Ph.D.
Dr. Christina M. Grange is a clinical psychologist and owner of The Fern Center for Life (Atlanta, Georgia). She is also an associate professor of Psychology at Clayton State University. Her clinical training focused on the well-being and optimal development of young people in the context of their families. Recent research and clinical work have evolved to focus on how to best support African American unmarried parents working to successfully co-parent their child or children. A recent writing related to that work is featured by the National Institute for Diversity.
Dr. Grange received her undergraduate and master’s degrees from Florida Agricultural and Mechanical University (FAMU), prior to receiving her PhD from Virginia Commonwealth University. She completed pre-doctoral training at the University of Illinois – Chicago and post-doctoral training at the University of Georgia’s Center for Family Research. These experiences combine to provide a unique perspective for how to use research and adapt related resources to better serve diverse family structures and promote the psychological wellness of communities.
Full Audio Transcript
[THEME MUSIC UNDER INTRO]
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Can you say... “This is Dr. Amanda Zelechoski.”
Child 1: Why do we have to?
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Just try it!
Child 1: I can't.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Deep breath.
Child 2: [Laughter] This is Dr. Amanda Zelechoski.
Child 3: [Yelling] Lindsay Malloy! Ah!
Dr. Lindsay Malloy: Wait, say Doctor Lindsay Malloy.
Child 3: [Yelling] Dr. Lindsay Malloy!
Dr. Lindsay Malloy: [Laughing] No, come back!
Child 4: This is Dr. Lindsay Malloy.
Child 2: Welcome to the [unintelligible] Parenting Podcast (laugher).
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: [Laughter].
Dr. Lindsay Malloy: One more time.
Child 4: And then after that, can I have a candy?
Dr. Lindsay Malloy: [Laughing] No.
Child 4: Please, Mommy!
Dr. Lindsay Malloy: Okay, ready?
Child 4: The Pandemic Parenting Podcast!
Dr. Lindsay Malloy: Excellent!
[MUSIC ENDS]
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Welcome to the Pandemic Parenting Podcast. I'm Dr. Amanda Zelechoski.
Dr. Lindsay Malloy: And I'm Dr. Lindsay Malloy. We are two psychologists, scholars, and moms, and together we co-founded Pandemic Parenting.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: We're here to share science-based research and help all who care for kids navigate this challenging time together.
[MUSIC INTERLUDE]
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Please note that the information contained in this podcast and on the Pandemic Parenting website are intended for educational purposes only. Nothing discussed in this podcast or provided on the website are intended to be a substitute for professional psychological advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
No doctor-patient relationship is formed between the hosts or guests of this podcast and listeners. If you need the qualified advice of a mental health or medical provider, we encourage you to seek one in your area.
[MUSIC ENDS]
Dr. Lindsay Malloy: This episode is coming out in May, which is mental Health Awareness Month in the US. So we wanted to dedicate some time to discuss the topic of parent mental health, specifically during the Pandemic. So what does research say about parent mental health? Why is it important? What other factors protect or harm our mental health? And, advice for combating burnout?
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: To join us for this conversation, we were thrilled to bring back guest expert Dr. Christina Grange. Dr. Grange joined us for a webinar on co-parenting and single parenting during the pandemic last winter and shared incredible insight. We'll include a link to that webinar in our show notes if you want to go back and check that out.
Dr. Lindsay Malloy: It was really great to have Dr. Grange join us again and share her insight as a researcher and a clinician who works primarily with non-traditional families. All right, let's get into our conversation.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Welcome to the podcast. Welcome back, Christina. We're so happy to have you.
Dr. Christina Grange: Thank you, I'm glad to be here. You guys are doing great work, so I'm happy to contribute in any way that I can.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Thank you! So, one of the reasons we wanted to have this conversation is because, you know, May is Mental Health Awareness Month, and I don't know about you two, but man, my parent mental health hasn't been great this year. How about you two?
Dr. Lindsay Malloy: Yeah. Personally, I feel like I've hit a real wall around the one-year mark, and I was hearing from a lot of other parents who felt the same way.
Dr. Christina Grange: Yeah. I think it's been an interesting phase. I kind of feel like I don't remember the first quarter of the pandemic. Or it was just a blur, and then I had a different emotional experience coming out of March and into April. Like just different types of emotions that I didn't experience earlier, so I think I've now started to feel like the academic year is wrapping up and I'm tired. Like I was plowing through and now it's towards the end of the academic year which to me represents a certain season in the pandemic and I think the wall is a good word. I'm like, oh, and now we're done, and I might just lay down, yeah.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yes, yes.
Dr. Christina Grange: So– but I'm mindful that I feel like another phase is going to happen in August when at least in my family, we go back to school in a different way. It's a transition, not an–
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah, I think–
Dr. Christina Grange: –end, it seems like.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: – yeah, I think sometimes we don't realize how exhausted or burned out we are until you like, have this little bit of a break or a chance to breathe that you actually realize you know wow, like you said, I just need to lay down literally and figuratively.
Dr. Christina Grange: Mhm.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: So one of the reasons we wanted to talk about this is because, in all of this pandemic parenting work we've been doing, you know parents have been, and rightfully so, very focused on their children's mental health. And we care about that too, of course, and there are lots of conversations we're having and sharing about that, but we wanted to talk about, with you, you know, why is it so important for parents to take care of their mental health? And you know, make that a focus in their lives?
Dr. Christina Grange: I think it's been really interesting to help people realize that it's actually not just about your kids, and I, as a human and as a mother, I've had to come to that realization too and maybe be vulnerable with my child in a way that I didn't ever really expect to 'cause normally we get a break from each other. So, if I need to regroup, I can kind of do that on my own. I think it's important that we recognize the significance of mental health for parents because they (children) are watching us. They are literally watching us, and it's possible that they learn more from us this year, meaning our children– they learned more from us this year than they did in school, not necessarily academically, but in terms of the way we deal with life and how we manage things.
So we're showing them everything they need to survive outside of this academic space that I know a lot of us have really been focused on. I've enjoyed reminding parents of the most important thing, and so sometimes I've just–, particularly mothers, “who's the most important person in your life?” and they're like this is a trick question, I think, I think I'm supposed to say my child I guess. And so I really, for myself and for other families, adults specifically with kids wanted to suggest to them that you are actually the most important. And it's, uh, and your child is right here in your head. They are so important, but their world will fall apart if you are not strong and stable, so technically, you're the most important person in your life, and as they get older, they're going to be the most important person in their life, right?
And so how can we show them what it means to take care of ourselves and maybe on some days they do a little something to take care of you, and that's okay. So if parents aren't OK, then we've heard it before. Children may struggle, but I think it's really that we're showing them how to get through adversity better than we can tell them. I like the statement I can show you better than I can tell you, and this, I think it has application here.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Gosh, what you said though it goes so much against our societal narrative, right about the parent, you know, sort of being the martyr, and certainly I think we see this and the research with mothers much more than fathers, but it can go both ways that just– right? When I have a child, I mean that's it. I don't matter anymore, so I think, even as you said, you know who is the most important. It's like you feel guilty almost saying that it's yourself.
Dr. Christina Grange: And it's not to mean that nobody else is important. I mean we're just saying the most important person in my life– like if I'm not well, there's going to be some major struggles, and it means just the basic stuff, like allowing young people to realize that I'm tired tonight. So if I look tired or if I'm a little bit snappy, I know for my own child she's gotten to know every day going through the same routines, and she come upstairs to work kind of knowing the flow of things that by 6:00 o'clock I'm fading, yeah, and that's OK. And I'm a little bit more tired with every passing hour after 4:00 o'clock.
Dr. Lindsay Malloy: Yeah, I think about what you're saying about even answering that question of who's the most important person. And like you said, or Amanda said, the societal pushback on that, I feel like, it's hard for moms to say that especially right like I'm the most important. And it just reminded me of a headline that I saw recently that was talking about how if a woman says anything negative about motherhood, they almost always feel the need to qualify it with “I love my kids more than anything in the world, but–” then say something negative, right? Like, but you know they're driving me crazy or whatever it is, and I definitely find myself doing that. Like it just doesn't feel like you can be open and honest about those feelings, even though it's not all wonderful and lovely rainbows and everything, especially right now.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: We have these holidays that let you know like, I think about Mother's Day, of course, and it's so you know, or your birthday maybe, where it's like you have these holidays where it sort of feels OK. You have permission to say, “oh, it's all about me,” because when I think about it, it's like because I know that's what my kids want to do for me, they wanna make me breakfast in bed so they wanna, you know, do these things for me which is so sweet. And then it's like– but is that actually what I want or would want? Or once again, am I saying, oh, I'm letting you create the Mother's Day that you know, that you want, but it's like we have this permission a couple days a year for it to be really about us or for me to be the most important person. But every other day, you know, it needs to be about everybody else.
Dr. Christina Grange: Yeah, I've had this experience asking younger people and adults, oftentimes parents, what brings you joy just outside the recognition of schools, some of the traditional things we do at work, just what brings you joy, the simplest thing. And I found that people have really struggled to answer that question. And in particular, mothers who have spent so much time creating things and enjoying moments for families and fathers contribute to that as well– this idea of what is all about you has been a struggle for a lot of people to answer.
And so, as you say that, Amanda, about mothers, that I think, what does it mean if we say you know what? I'd love to see what you can create for me 'cause we do want to encourage children to celebrate people. I think that's a very important thing to know that this is a day that is about someone else, and then I want to see what it feels like to do ABCD, whatever it is that I just want to do, which may be just laying in bed and reading a book, but quietly.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yes!
Dr. Christina Grange: That is your service to me, quietly. “Oh, but I want to do this” [Mimicking a child’s voice]. You can do that, do not let me steal your joy. You can feel free to make me breakfast, and I would like to quietly have two hours of reading in my bed. And then they really have to know what service looks like to contain themselves. Not that they necessarily will depending on their age, but if you're asking me, to be able to tell our young people you know, or our spouse, or our parents, whoever is in the village, this is what would feel good to me and this is what support looks like on this particular day from me, 'cause there's so many different types of support.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah, and I– to navigate that exact conversation, because of course the guilt was there right when I would say, “do you know what I really want?” –and my husband, thankfully, I appreciate he knows this like she just wants to be alone. She just wants to have a day that nobody needs anything from her. We all leave her alone. She gets to, you know, binge watch romantic comedies or whatever she wants to do by herself, and so he's been, you know, I appreciated that he recognizes that and makes that happen.
But then, of course, the kids are like, wait, so for your birthday or for Mother's Day, you just want to be away from us? And then it's like big pangs of guilt that feel like well, yeah I do. But it's you know that's like turning that into, I think, what you're talking about Christina is such a helpful way to frame it for kids. You know, to help them understand that well, you know how sometimes you just want to play with toys by yourself and you don't like it when your brother kind of always wants to come and do it with you. So it's trying to frame it for them that you're not, uh, a problem that I'm trying to run away from. It's just that I want some time by myself too– Man, that mom guilt is there.
Dr. Christina Grange: Yeah, I think it's a practice. Things like strengthening the muscles. The more we do it, we work on our language, and we see what works for our families, right? Cause we all have our own subculture and language that's normative in our family, and it may be a joke. Whatever gets you, kind of, what you need, but to allow it to be a practice that the child would then grow up saying, oh, my mother knew how to take her hour a day, or my mother knew how to take a nap on a Sunday afternoon. And it shows them that that's actually OK and I think there is something very important about that.
It's interesting. The University of Pennsylvania, I believe, has this great chart about the different types of support. And I think that as we think about mental health for parents, for parents to think about what kind of support do you need? Do you need to vent? OK, that's emotional support. Do you need somebody to pick up your child today, even if it's only going to save you twenty minutes? Twenty minutes can do so much for our state of psychological well-being. There's different types of support and I think it's been interesting to support people in thinking about how do you know when you need a different type of support?
Somebody might say, hey, I'm here if you need me, just call. But then you realize I really don’t wanna talk to anybody 'cause I've been talking to somebody all day. That's me, I guess. But I'd love to not have to cook right? And then sometimes you guys, I can give that to myself. I can order something, but to realize that and not just lump it into one category. Maybe a tool that can help families a little bit more and parents.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah. I like thinking about it as categories like that to give people options.
Dr. Lindsay Malloy: And I, I think like one of the ways that it's different for parents because we don't want to at all imply, like, you know, with our whole pandemic parenting adventure this last year we've been really focused on parents, obviously, and that's not to say because we think parents have it the worst. I mean, everyone has it really hard right now during this pandemic, but when I think about one of the ways that the situation is somewhat unique for parents, it's just the lack of a break.
The lack of an opportunity for a break, especially if your kids aren't going to school in person, there really is almost no time that– time that I used to maybe take when they were away at childcare. It now has to be done in front of them or around them, and that does give some interesting opportunities to help them by modeling that for them like you're saying. But I guess my question is, what are the other unique aspects, if there are any, that would make us want to focus on parents or that make this situation particularly challenging for parents in this pandemic situation?
Dr. Christina Grange: And thinking about that, I think that it is hard because sometimes I've worked with colleagues who feel like people might act as though they don't have children or because they don't have children, they don't have a lot going on. And so, I'm glad you brought that up because I think it's important to know that people can have different types of stressors. So it might be their parents, it might be figuring out stuff with their house, or it might be their kids.
But it's true. You guys are focused on parenting with this podcast, so I think that another thing that I'm mindful of is that parents –whether it's fair or not– are responsible for a whole other human, right? And I think that's a pretty big weight. People who are helping their seniors in high school transition through this unusual year and trying to contain all that energy that you're supposed to be able to have in your senior year and manage it in a very different way to now, get them to whatever their next step.
Whether it be at work, be at college, or be in the military. That's a very huge responsibility that you can feel like you have no model for in the context of a pandemic because you don't have the resources for your child that you may have experienced yourself. And so I've experienced some people feeling like they're building something new but their plans to have a senior, for example, they knew this was coming, but they didn't know that their child wasn't going to have the celebrations.
And I mean all of them, right? Because if you're a senior, you have multiple types of milestones and rituals that honor this 12-year process. The same thing if you have a young child. Parents are beginning to think about, okay, so did they get everything they were supposed to get in this grade? ‘Cause now they're going to 2nd grade. What are they even supposed to be doing? Like how do I know that they're ready? And parent’s always have these concerns. But if parents feel like they've been home with me, I'm supposed to prepare them for something.
That's an additional level of pressure. So people are going into the summer, and if you don't have kids, things don't change. But again, parents are going into the summer thinking what should I be doing now, and in my community, the county that I live in, they have summer school for free for all of the children. And parents are wondering should I do that? Should I not do that? If they haven't– just a lot of different layers, so I think the more identities you have, the more you have to manage, right?
As a parent, that's an identity. As a woman, that's an identity. As a man, that's an identity, and then still maintaining work responsibilities or taking care of your parents, if that's an issue. So, I kind of think of it as though we're talking about it, the more identities you have, the more stress it is. And parenting is a large role that for some people is a significant part of their identity, and so that's unique.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: That's a really helpful way to frame it, 'cause it's also like sometimes even in your work you might have multiple identities in your work, and it's just yeah, it's more of these places where you're having to make decisions. Or like you said, when you think about the kids, you know, I hadn't thought about that– the extra weight of being responsible because you were essentially the remote learning teacher, supervisor– like you're there to do all the things. So if they're falling behind, how much maybe more you're taking that on yourself versus like, oh well, this is on the school or– this is on, you know, whomever else.
Dr. Christina Grange: Yeah, and most parents take responsibility, but I can't help with families that I'm working with, and even with myself, feeling like there's been a lot more responsibility this year than I expected to have at this stage in my child’s development.
[MUSIC INTERLUDE - SPONSOR BREAK]
Dr. Lindsay Malloy: At Pandemic Parenting, we're committed to sharing our expertise and research in ways that are immediately accessible and useful to families. As part of our efforts to sustain and expand this work, Amanda and I are also available for virtual speaking engagements at your business organization, PTO, and more.
We want to help you and those you work with, grow with and raise your children with a chance to do so in an environment that fosters and supports your mental health.
Some of the topics we speak on include parenting during the pandemic, the impact of trauma on children and families, children’s development, the mental health impact of COVID-19 on employees, and more.
If you or your organization are interested in potentially collaborating with us, please reach out for availability and pricing through the request a speaker form on our website at www.pandemic-parent.org/contact.
[MUSIC ENDS - END SPONSOR BREAK]
Dr. Christina Grange: It's going to be an adjustment for everyone going back, and so I try to help parents pace it. Let's take it one step at a time. Let's be present in the summer. You've never had a year like this before. You've learned a lot about your child, a lot about yourself. Let's be present in that. Let's go into the summer. Let's look forward to those highs, and then we'll transition so that parents don't get too overwhelmed with the future that, as we've learned, maybe unpredictable in some ways.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah, so you mentioned this a few times, which I'm so glad you did because we've been so curious, you've been doing lots of research and talking with families and parents, and so you know we remember hearing about that at the beginning of when you were setting it up. And so Lindsay and I have been so curious. You know, fill us in. What have you been doing as far as the research, and what are you seeing, both in your research, and in your clinical work with families when it comes to things like parents' mental health?
Dr. Christina Grange: Well, I do a lot of work with families that are non-traditional families and so these may be people who identify as single parents, people who identify as co-parenting parents. That makes up a large part of the people that I serve. Or blended families. So all the ways that you can be non-traditional and it's been interesting. I kind of think of it as the wins. We have some wins in this complex world that we're living in and what I mentioned briefly is that one of the wins is being able to understand your child better.
What I think I've seen is that parents are realizing that their child might not learn in some universal way. For some kids, being remote learning has not been as bad as we might have thought it was going to be. For some children, it has. And parents have had to adopt and adapt to that, but I think that, you know, if we look at the wins, it's been interesting to see your child at different stages of development.
Elementary school versus middle school versus high school. Responding to this new tool that will stay with them forever. So colleges aren't going to stop virtual learning. It's going to continue to be a thing. And so, figuring out that, oh, this could work for my child. My child does better if I'm thinking about again my high school students who I'm the provider for. They actually are more organized than they've ever been, and so giving them the opportunity to explore what that means was their child distracted? Was there a lot of social comparison? There's been a lot of opportunity to learn who children are adolescents or, again, younger children and use that to support your parenting approach.
So I think that's been an example of a win, and same thing for younger children. Part of that learning means that parents have, I think, had to learn more about themselves. I say it all the time, and I will maintain it: most parents in our generation did not expect to spend this much time with their children, ever. It's natural that we did not expect that, and so parents have had to kind of realize what it is about themselves and about their child that matches that works.
And then where are they different, and what does it mean? And that is OK. The same way, it's OK to say I need my time. The same way, it's OK to be able to say, hey, we're different when it comes to this particular thing. And that's been hard for some families, I think, but to end with another win, I've also found young children becoming so much more independent. For better or worse, I guess depending on, you know, more independent on the Internet, that could be tricky, but more independent in terms of serving yourself a meal. That's kind of a cool thing that parents, you know as adults; we do what we do.
We're always in a routine. We don't change as quickly as our young people do. But now, we realize that an eight-year-old, seven-year-old can get themselves some food and that they will be OK. They will actually be OK. And so I've enjoyed being able to highlight that for parents to say look what your young person did! Did we even think they were going to be doing that, logging on, logging off. I wasn't expecting my child to do that stuff, and then she would always say to me “I got it”. I don't even know if I'm ready for you to have it.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Ah, it's true, yes.
Dr. Christina Grange: So there have been some wins, and there have been some struggles, and I do think the biggest struggle is for parents to figure out what it means to spend time away from them for their children. As you said, Lindsay, when we're in this box together, meaning the house that we live in. Unfortunately, it's getting warmer in a lot of places. I'm in Georgia, but it will get warmer everywhere. It's just a fact. So eventually, there will be more opportunities for people to get out, at least into their yards and on their block, so that they can spend time together. It doesn't have to be the same structure as they did for the past 14 months or so.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Who's counting, right?
One other win I was thinking about as you were talking about that is, you know, like you said the technology these things our kids have learned will stay with them and the independence. Like, you know, all of us work with college students in our professor/faculty roles, and one of the challenges I think we've all probably seen over the years, in university settings, you know, many college freshmen when they come in they're sort of shell shocked. They don't know how to manage their time– that you know they really struggle in the beginning to settle in, 'cause they've never had to.
And so what you were just describing was making me think about like, yeah when these eight, nine, ten-year-olds have it figured out, they know their zoom schedule, they know I have to do this– like they're managing their time in these pretty amazing independent ways. They’re learning those skills much earlier, and I think that when we see– whatever this is generation zoom, I've heard them referred to– these kids growing up, right? That by the time we get them in college, they're gonna actually be much better at navigating a lot of those changes.
Having to be more responsible for their time and their assignments and their, you know, the demands on their time. I think it's going to be really interesting 'cause they have had to learn it earlier, you know, for better or worse.
Dr. Christina Grange: Yeah, I think so. At the same time, as I said, and as we're talking about it, I'm also mindful that the educators who receive them next year, regardless of what grade they're in, professors down to kindergarten, they're going to experience probably such a range.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Christina Grange: In their children– where they're bringing to the table. Because what we're talking about is suggesting that this has gone well for some kids, right? But it also hasn't gone well for some children. And so I'm mindful as a community member, as a parent, as a health provider in my community that we again have no idea what the fall is going to be like. It's going to be cool for some people, and it's going to be stressful for others in different ways.
I have a friend who is an educator, and she's actually concerned about writing skills. Some kids miss a whole year of really, really writing in the way that we would have normally taught it. So she brought up a great example that we're going to be seeing the impact of some of these academic experiences for some of the children for years, you know, a couple of years to come, and so there's some catching up. So it's the pros and cons, and it really depends on the resources that people have had available during this season.
I don't know what we'll call it in five years? I guess we'll still call it, for now, the COVID season. So it's that mixed bag. I think what we, as community members and, again, as mental health professionals, are going to be figuring out as we transition into the next phase I'm trying to always think about, what are we going to call it? So now, I'm just calling it the next phase of our world.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: [laughs] I know, exactly.
Dr. Lindsay Malloy: So it just makes me think a lot about individual differences and how important they've always been, but I think now, especially, we'll be aware of those like as teachers as parents, as mental health professionals that we need to consider all of the different sorts of reactions to the last year and all of the different outcomes there. So in terms of parents and their mental health that we are thinking a lot about this month, we've been hearing– we've been feeling it, we've been hearing it from parents about the level of burnout and exhaustion that they've reached. So we're now over a year into this thing.
When it first started, I was like, oh, these two weeks with my kids home is going to be so stressful. I don't know how I'm going to get through it, and you know, now we're what, 15 months? So I guess, do you have any advice or tips for coping with some of that burnout and exhaustion? Because we're still in it and it looks like, you know, we don't know what, whatever we call the next phase, we don't know exactly when it will start and what it will look like, so what can we do to deal with the pandemic burnout?
Dr. Christina Grange: One of the things I think about with that is the people who are around us for a while, right? Post pandemic. As we figure out what that looks like, and so I think that I think of it in two ways, one at the individual level. What can I, as an individual, do? And so we think about things that require making space, right? And like we just talked about, that's not always available.
There's not enough space. I just don't know if there's enough space for people to have the kind of space that we've been socialized to be able to have, even our cars, right? We don't spend as much time in them. So, but what I think about, as simple as it seems, and I talked to a lot of my clients about this, as well as graduate students, is the power of taking a breath.
It seems so simple, but in this past year, personally and professionally, I have seen the most basic, really, element of who we are as humans, right? It's– we need it for survival. What that really means 'cause it means that we're pausing. It means that in that moment we have the opportunity to recenter. Easier said than done and it is a practice, but it also means that when we're taking that breath, it's a cue to our environment.
If someone else sees me take a breath; if we kind of create a culture around it, they can know somethings going on, and maybe they should pause, right? It's a very simple tool and we know that physiologically, it has healing effects on our system. Like, physiologically, it calms down our heart rate. Physiologically it cools us off because chances are by the time I've gotten to the point where I need a breath, I'm– my body temperature is actually increasing.
Well, even if you don't know what emotion you're feeling, just knowing that your temperature is rising or that you're off. My grandmother was that exact away. “I don't know which way you feel, but chances are that's not a good way if you're telling me that you feel a way.” And so, realizing that is really important, and it's within yourself, right?
This is like from head to toe– this is me, and I know that something in me is off right now and honoring that is a very simple thing that we can do. So recognizing when I'm off, or to honor my grandmother when you say we feel a way, honor that—and then being able to take a breath to do a little bit more. It can be while I'm cooking, right? While you're doing the dishes? 'Cause you can get into a good zone doing the dishes even if you don't want to.
Honoring that and then allowing people to know, just give me a second. But being able to kind of take that time– so it links back to what we talked about earlier that you actually are the most important, and I think it's a paradigm shift. I feel off. It's OK for me to feel off. Let me take a breath to see what that is, and give some clues to my environment. Something else that it's been interesting to support families with is helping them help each other. We know when the people in our life, they're not right. When they're going to a different place.
One family I worked with– I said you guys should come up with a word for when things feel off. Whether you feel it or your mom or your dad, and so one family said: “Is this a jalapeno moment?” You know, I'm like that's the perfect word. Again, that might not mean something to some families. But, whatever your word is– 'cause it lightens the mood a little bit, and it allows for us to acknowledge that somebody is off and they can be a child. You can say that to your child. Is this all too much? Do you need a second? You know how children do the build up to the crime? I’m sure parents see it coming. The child’s frozen for a second like, and I'm like, oh there's a build up.
And so things are like, are we having a moment? What happened? You know? Are you feeling the moment or a different kind of moment and the child you know– you can laugh about it. They might say, “I don't want to talk about it,” you know? But it acknowledges that we– meaning the child, in this case, other cases, maybe the parent– are having a moment, so those are just simple tools.
Of course, getting air, right? Going for a walk is a beautiful thing. We know that movement, not necessarily exercise, but movement is good for our physiology as well. I'm thinking about the stuff that's free and easy– movement, drinking water, taking a breath. That anybody can do no matter where you are because I know that some of the other tools that we traditionally think of to take care of ourselves might not be as available. So what are the tools actually within us? Something I really try to help families realize so they can feel a little bit more empowered.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Well, and what I love about all of those is just that it's also modeling for your kids, right? These are all strategies your kids can use too, to kind of regulate themselves, so when they see you do it, when they, you know, when you're having your jalapeno moment, it's actually modeling for them how to do that for them at– and we just totally co-opted the family you were working with words, so I'm sorry.
Dr. Lindsay Malloy: Wait, but wait because my family has one of these words, and I didn't even realize it, not my– I mean my extended family, not my you know husband and kids, but it's our “half a cup of coffee moment.” So we actually have this phrase. I never would have thought about it, but yeah. Which all goes way back to, uh– a time at a restaurant with my grandma in New Orleans, when the waitress only filled her cup of coffee half full, and the cream wasn't, you know, it was a thing. It was a big big thing, but like there was a meltdown, and it's like from then on it became like are you having a half a cup of coffee moment? So yeah, you just gotta find yours and–
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: I love it.
Dr. Lindsay Malloy: –I mean, hearing you talk about just, you know, being outside. So I just had ended a 14-day quarantine because I had gone to the US and then came back into Canada. And it's just amazing how quickly, you know, the mental health could just tank when you're, you know, you can't leave the house or yard, which was what I was required to do, and it just– oh, it's that it's hard, so I was definitely, uh, failing you on that one, the importance of movement.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah, and all these things are– it was just making me think too, as you said that Lindsay like it may not have to be a big long walk outside. It's just like anything to sort of interrupt or disrupt that cycle you're going down. And I think about that, you know, for myself when I am just at those moments of frustration, exhaustion, or just like I feel completely hopeless or helpless like I'm so tired of this and there's no end in sight. It's like I start to go on that downward mental spiral and anything I can do to interrupt that– so like, you know, like you were saying, maybe it's just literally walking out your front door, taking a breath and walking back in like, what can you do to sort of disrupt this spiral you're going down for yourself internally? You know, right? Whether that's taking a breath, going outside, drinking water, you know just something to interrupt that it was making me think about in our forensic world, you know when people are testifying and they're trying to get you in this rhythm. You do anything to really just interrupt that you can stop and take a breath and interrupt that rapid-fire. And we do that rapid-fire of questioning to ourselves, or that you know self-talk, that we tend to do.
Dr. Christina Grange: Yeah. Yeah, something else I thought of –it's really simple– is when I catch a– I don't know when it happens, but when I feel like I can lay on the floor and put my back on the floor. I realize how tight my back is, like when my back can lay flat on the floor like, God, she was like I just got a massage and all I'm doing is laying on the floor. This season has been a valuable way to think about what are the simplest, simplest things that we can do. In addition to that, like the cognitive process of operating from a place of gratitude. That doesn't mean we're like, that does not mean that everything is OK, but being able to recognize that, relatively speaking, sometimes at least it could be worse, and we recognize that yeah.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: So I wanted to ask if– these are great tips, this is, you know, these are super helpful things you can do in the moment, but I'm also mindful of, you know, each of us in some ways are operating from different places of privilege. You know there are a lot of people experiencing major systemic barriers and issues, and you know, we've used quoted Damien bar a lot in his phrase of, you know, we're all in the same storm, but we're not in the same boat. Some are in a yacht, you know, some are in the boat with just one ore. And so, I'm just thinking about a lot of these other systemic issues for parents that we know mental health can be tied to in many ways so it’s one thing to sort of say you know, yes, take a breath. Do all of these things, but it also reminds me of, you know, what we've quoted a lot from, our former guests as well, Dr. Travis Heath, right? That we're asking people to self-care their way out of social inequities. And so, I'm just thinking about a lot of the work you do, Christina, with, you know, with single parents, with parents of color, you know, they're just people who have faced many more layers besides just the pandemic. So I'm wondering about your thoughts around mental health and the things that you do to work with people in situations where taking a deep breath isn't going to fix these systemic issues.
Dr. Christina Grange: So I think it's an important question that there is no actual one-shot deal or simple answer for. What I really value is realizing that everybody is experiencing everything in a different way. As I've worked with families, specifically black families, I've been sensitive to realize that on any given day, there are any number of additional stressors, but the amount of psychological energy that it takes to process these things. You're not actually crazy. This is exhausting. And if you choose not to acknowledge it, in this moment, if it's watching the news– even though– because it's the social pressure, right? Saying, did you see this case? So did you hear what happened?
And there's this pressure to keep up with everything? Everything, for example, in terms of social injustice, in addition to your family, in addition to your health, in addition to your job. So on some days, keeping up with social injustice is a job. Like it takes a huge amount of energy. So also for me, it's important to create space to say you don't have to. Choosing not to on this particular day or in this particular moment, it doesn't mean that you are not committed to your community. It means you're taking a break, right? It means that you're protecting your psychological wellness because some of the images that we have had the opportunity to see are just distressing.
It might make you think of your own childhood or your own cousin or your own parents. The accumulation of experiences contributes to the weathering that has been discussed, weathering from the 70s. People talked about language onymous, the weathering hypothesis and it's the idea of being worn down by the realities of an oppressive culture. Yeah, that's important. So the question of, how do we deal with it? I think it's something else that we're still learning how to deal with, but the reality is we get to talk about it more than we ever have before and in a variety of different settings. Living in Atlanta, it was a little bit closer to home when the shooting happened with the women and the, mostly women, Asian women in the spas. And so, being able to give space for that and to learn more and to understand.
Because I also have clients of diverse backgrounds. To hold space and let them process what that meant for their community. ‘Cause I'm not a part of that community, right? I mean, I'm an ethnic minority living in America, but that's a different cultural experience. And so I had to evaluate as a provider, what does it mean to hold space for a group that I'm not a member of. So I value –and you guys can share what your experience has been– the opportunity for everybody to learn how to hold space and either allow for catharsis, or allow for releasing and not people wanting to let go of that identity, at least while they're sharing, you know, having a therapeutic experience.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Oh, thank you. Yeah, I just yeah, I really appreciate hearing your reflection on that and especially your emphasis for everyone on, even if you're really passionate about these issues. Whether they hit your community or not, whether you identify with that group or not, like the pressure, many people have felt, I think, especially parents of color to also be out there participating vocal, like every time something happens and then there's a new headline the next day and a new one and they're exhausted.
And so I think about, you know, it's been quoted in different ways, but the notion that rest is also resistance and trying to remind people that like you can't go out and protest every single thing while you're still in a pandemic and trying to manage your family. And, you know, so when people have felt this sort of guilt or, you know, just been hard on themselves about well, I'm not showing up for this case, and here's another headline and I need to think about this and process this, and it's like, but you can also take a day to breathe and rest.
You can't show up every day with that 100% energy because it is– it's that weathering. I think you've said so, so I appreciated that. And I've definitely felt that at times, as you know, not even a member of many of these communities, as you noted. But like I want to create space, and I want to show up, and I want to be supportive in all the possible ways I can. But also, I'm exhausted 'cause I was up with my kid all night, again, and so it's just what does that long-term stamina look like, and how can we show up for ourselves so that we then can show up for others?
Dr. Lindsay Malloy: And recognizing that it is emotional labor. And I think for Amanda and I, who I realize this is a podcast, so you can't see us, but as you know, white women like, you know, our role is, a lot of times, you know, to just listen and try to learn and try to do the work ourselves and not to put that extra emotional labor you know on our friends or colleagues who are black or, you know, people of color to do that for us.
And so definitely, you know, a learning curve, and I think, you know, we had the webinar on anti-racist parenting, and in that we talked about how hard it is to, just sort of, get in there and to try to do the work. But, to not keep sort of putting it off, to be willing to make mistakes, to know that you're not going to get it perfect and to learn, essentially to be there to learn.
Dr. Christina Grange: And I think parents, it's the shared experience of parenting. How you communicate this to your child in a way that's developmentally appropriate and then there may be the desire to protect them from it– that is quite the dance, I think that we all experience as parents. How do you talk to your child about the fact that this might come up at school? Or about the fact that this is why I'm kind of tired, and I just got some more bad news and do that in the context of them also learning about servants to our community, right?
In terms of understanding the role of the police or if it's health care, any of those things where there may be a sense that certain communities are disempowered. But they're doing it right as if everybody is having some kind of conversation with their child about this then it makes it more normative. And in making conversations around how hard topics are normative, we're doing that heavy lifting of parenting and preparing them to take care of us when we're old, but also to help the world be better. If we're all participating in these tough conversations to the best of our ability, then it helps us know that we're kind of contributing to the next generation, that’s going to make the tough decisions, either in politics or health care or business.
So that we won't be having the same conversations about equality versus equity about inclusion about different ways in which we can talk about sexual identity. It'll be more normative for them, so I think that's a gift we give them (and ourselves!) so that we can see that having these conversations in twenty years. And we already see it, I mean high school students and college students, they're having conversations that we– I wasn't having – I guess, twenty or twenty-five years ago, and so we see that we see that progress, right?
My daughter, if I'm describing someone, she says, “Is she white or is she black?” I'm like, that's a very good question. Such an obvious characteristic. Let me give you more information about that, right? Because we don't have to act like color doesn't exist. It's a physical characteristic that we can use to describe people, and it's not good or bad. It's just actually a characteristic like long hair versus short hair.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Yeah, right.
Dr. Christina Grange: Yeah, this is much easier, especially with young children, right? And then, if they have questions they can ask, I want to offer that to parents. To contribute to create and all of the complexities, be it COVID, be it racial injustice. They're transitioning– the young people transitioning through their own identities, family separation, whatever it is we want to keep our children, asking us questions, and that means we have to monitor how we respond to their questions. 'Cause I feel like if they're asking questions and they're open, like I'm like, well we're winning. We're still in the game.
But it's when they transition, oftentimes to middle school and high school; they stop asking questions. Because they've learned certain social norms, maybe ones that we've given them, maybe from their peers, maybe from TV that says certain questions are inappropriate. And I hope that families will be able to receive the inappropriate questions so that we can learn together “inappropriate” in quotes, of course. So that we can do some of that learning together 'cause it's— if we can do that, then I do think we're doing good work.
Dr. Lindsay Malloy: Yeah, and to just know for parents that you might stumble through some of it, and that’s okay.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Right.
Dr. Christina Grange: Yeah, you will.
Dr. Lindsay Malloy: I mean just today my– I was trying to have a conversation with my five-year-old about gender identity, and I think I got some aspects of it right, and he was asking me some questions. I definitely think I'm going to have to do some more reading and brush up on some things in order to get him to a level of understanding that I feel comfortable with and he feels comfortable with. But I mean, in some ways, like I love having these discussions with them because it's so interesting when, especially when they're young, but it also can be really difficult and I think parents might shy away from them because they don't know exactly what to say or they don't know how to answer every question, but I think just recognizing, yeah, you won't know how to answer every question, and that's OK. And you can always say, you know, “that's a great question. Let me get back to you on that.” “I'm going to think about that, or I'm going to, you know, do some more reading on that,” so–
Dr. Christina Grange: Yeah. “You're so smart little person; you're trying.” It– it's interesting 'cause in the co-parenting work that I do, I created a promotional video to help with recruitment for families, and my daughter watched it. So then the next day, she said, “so do you think we should ask such and such as parents to be part of your work because she has a mommy and a daddy and they live in different houses, so maybe they co-parent?” And I was like, “did you get all that from the video… [unintelligible].” Yeah, they're learning so much faster than we are, right? Lindsay, as you talk about making sure we have our terminology together, he's already ahead of you.
Dr. Lindsay Malloy: Well my friend, my friend was saying that her ten-year-old, they were having a discussion about what pronouns someone uses, and they were having this discussion like in middle school, and it's just– I don't feel like I'm that old, but you know, that is definitely not a discussion that we would have had in middle school, high school or even college really so, yeah.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: So I want to ask– as we kind of near the end of our time, I think one of the big things to distinguish for parents as we focus on this issue of our own mental health is, you know, you do so much of this work with parents and families like, how do we know when it's time to get help? Like is this just stress and worry for me that is normal that everybody is feeling in the pandemic? Or is it time for me to get some help with this with a mental health professional?
Dr. Christina Grange: I think it's an important question because the field of applied psychology in terms, I mean clinical or counseling psychology, in terms of the availability of mental health professionals, I don't know if we were ready for the pandemic.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: No, we weren't, right?
Dr. Christina Grange: I don't think there were enough providers to manage the stress, and so what I encourage people to do is look for a provider now. The same way you know who your pediatrician is, the same way you know who your dentist is, who your primary care, who your OBGYN is, right? Have these people, including your therapist or psychologist, in your back pocket because chances are when you are at the point of needing one, it's going to be an additional level of stress to find one.
This is going to be a significant relationship that you have. I'm trained in community psychology, so I think a lot about prevention. And so, I think about getting in to see a provider before you're in significant distress. Think of yourself at your peak –that would be your ten and then kind of average is five, six– and if you're feeling regularly around a three, four, I think we can be feeling like we should make an appointment. And that three, four is going to be different for everyone.
Avoid the social comparisons and trust your own assessment of your level of wellness and if we need to have a measurement 'cause in American culture, we like measurements. Then that zero to ten scale can be an indicator. And just like we've talked about with other things, people can use it for themselves as adults, but also, start teaching that language to their children. And just kind of check yourself if it's multiple days of lowness, then you probably are going to benefit from chatting with someone, and when it comes to chatting with someone, I encourage people to think about it and in terms of why not go in for three sessions or four sessions?
Get your booster. Get strengthened. So that later on, you don't have to have sixteen sessions, and that's fine. Providers want to see people come and go because they've gained the skills that they feel they need to feel stronger. So, that would be my biggest tip, to kind of know what your optimal sense of wellness is and what your indicators below that optimal sense would include, ranging from optimal to I'm on the floor, and I can't do this anymore. We don't want to get to the floor, though. That's zero. I want to encourage people to get there before they can't get up.
Dr. Amanda Zelechoski: Ah, that's so great. Just all those pieces, and I especially appreciate you bringing in the social comparison part of this because I think that's been really hard for people. It's just because we're not seeing each other in person, so you're only seeing people’s social media versions of themselves, and then you're made to feel like, well, why aren't I doing OK? Like everybody else seems to be doing just fine, so I think, like you said, using that temperature gauge or rating scale to just keep comparing yourself to yourself rather than others.
Dr. Lindsay Malloy: And not waiting until things are so bad that you need some immediate assistance, and then you can't get it because there might be waiting periods involved. And so I really, yeah, I really think that's important, thank you. I was just going to ask sort of one final question if we have a minute. What is one thing that you wish you could say to the parents of the world right now?
Dr. Christina Grange: You know, and I wonder if in 10 years the details of this season will be lost on us. I wonder if we're not going to remember some of the details, but I love this Maya Angelou quote that I always, I never quote it perfectly, but it gives the sense that “people may not remember what you did or what you said, but they remember how you made them feel.” And I love it. It relieves some of the stress like I don't have to get everything right, but am I creating a safe enough space so that I feel– and helping people know how to treat me and helping people take– allowing people to care for me? So that when it's all said and done, I can say I did my best in this season, and that was fine. I love that thing.
So as we think about families, that feeling I think is really important. Am I going to remember? Is my child going to remember if they got all their sight words right? Probably not, but they'll remember if I'm yelling at them, they'll remember that sense of me, me, my, my anger, or my aggression towards them. So just think about how– allow yourself to feel the goodness. There are good moments here. They may not be as frequent as we'd like, but savor the good.
And sip on that slowly because complexity will always be there. But hopefully we can take a picture of those good moments and use them in the darker times and realize that, well, you know, parents and kids we’re on the same team. We might have different positions, but we are trying to win. And so if we remember that, even if we have tough spots, circling back around to say, but I'm still here with you. And encouraging your child to tell you the same thing, ‘cause it’s a bidirectional relationship. I think that can be very helpful.
[MUSIC INTERLUDE]
Dr. Lindsay Malloy: Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Pandemic Parenting Podcast.
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Dr. Lindsay Malloy: Thanks for listening. Hope you can join us next time.
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